Utah Wildlife Forum banner
1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,501 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Enough? Too much? About right? What do you think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
About right for Brady I think, if anything I would have liked to see it a bit higher, like around 6, just because of his refusal to cooperate. I was surprised they lost their 1st round pick, but don't think it'll really affect them too much.

All in all, when you take into account the money saved by the Patriots in not having to pay Brady for the 4 games, or first round money, the Patriots are actually going to save a bit of money.

I think they should have fined Bellichick directly, because even if he had no part of this, it's obvious that he's created a culture of cheating and bending the rules.

I'm guessing Brady will appeal it on the basis that there's no hard proof that he was a part of it, and his suspension will be dropped down to two.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,954 Posts
what is the penalty for pine tar and stick em? That is how this should be viewed. Not a big deal and didn't make much of a difference but still a rule and should be penalized. I think it was steep and this was for goodell to make up for the debacle of the ray rice thing. But also to avoid questions of favoritism between him and the patriots owner. I think he acted like a prosecutor, charged a bit more aggressively but knows it will be appealed and maybe pushed down to 2 games.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
Superbowl Champions*

The message is that cheating is mostly tolerated. Just on principle they should be stripped of the AFC title and the Superbowl title.

Brady knew what he was doing. The guys who deflated the balls knew what they were doing. They did it to have an unfair advantage. Whether deflating the balls resulted in an advantage or not, their intent was still to give themselves an advantage by fraud.

Competition is meaningless if it isn't honest.

I would have banned Brady, the deflators, and anyone else who knew or should have known that the balls were tampered with from the NFL for life. You don't play nice with cancer. You cut it out and kill it.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,501 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So by that, the 49ers should be stripped of 3 of their 4 titles because Jerry Rice used stickum on his hands IN the Superbowl.

Holding is against the rules in football. As is jumping off sides, facemasking, roughing the kicker, pass interference, encroachment, etc..... Breaking any of those rules is cheating, unless caught - then it is a penalty. But breaking them without getting caught - is cheating.

The Vikings put all of their balls in a ball warmer last year during a home game to gain an advantage, and were given a warning.

Several teams pumped in crowd noise during games to gain advantage.

Back in the day, Lavell Edwards had his offensive linemen wear gloves that matched the color of the opposing teams jersey so they could hold without being seen. Coach Edwards would also let the grass grow extremely tall if they faced a team with more speed to even things up with his slow white guys.

Which is why I'm not hearing ANY current NFL players calling for the kind of penalty received here. And outside a few loud mouths who's talk was always much bigger and louder than their game (like Keshawn Johnson), no former players are saying much either.

My own thought is Brady and the Pats got busted doing something every other QB and team does - doctor the football. And they should be punished. But this punishment is not about just this infraction. It is the same as in the 5th game of the season, the ref calling holding on a team and saying "but instead of the customary 10 yard penalty, it will be 30 yards because in the 3rd game, the team also had 2 pass interference calls and jumped off sides twice."
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,741 Posts
While I think the 1st round draft pick is an insanely harsh penalty........getting caught and going to court goes a whole lot smoother if you don't lie to the authorities or the judge before the sentence is passed.

Pete Rose, Lance Armstrong, Tonya Harding, Barry Bonds will all attest to that.

If my kids mess up and then tell the truth things go much smoother for them as well.

Personally I don't think all of these penalties will stick.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
596 Posts
Not enough...1 million is pocket change.
Cheaters shouldn't be rewarded with championships
Agree with you, this 1 million penalty costs the Patriots zero, they actually make money with this punishment.

1. Brady is suspended for 4 games, now the Patriots do not have to pay him approx. 4 million so they pay 1 million fine and pocket 3 million.

2. Patriots do not receive first round draft pick, now they do not have to pay the required 1st round draft pick contract (millions) they keep that money in their pocket, and can pursue a free agent.

Kraft and Goddell are buddies I believe they worked this all out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
So by that, the 49ers should be stripped of 3 of their 4 titles because Jerry Rice used stickum on his hands IN the Superbowl.

Holding is against the rules in football. As is jumping off sides, facemasking, roughing the kicker, pass interference, encroachment, etc..... Breaking any of those rules is cheating, unless caught - then it is a penalty. But breaking them without getting caught - is cheating.

The Vikings put all of their balls in a ball warmer last year during a home game to gain an advantage, and were given a warning.

Several teams pumped in crowd noise during games to gain advantage.

Back in the day, Lavell Edwards had his offensive linemen wear gloves that matched the color of the opposing teams jersey so they could hold without being seen. Coach Edwards would also let the grass grow extremely tall if they faced a team with more speed to even things up with his slow white guys.

Which is why I'm not hearing ANY current NFL players calling for the kind of penalty received here. And outside a few loud mouths who's talk was always much bigger and louder than their game (like Keshawn Johnson), no former players are saying much either.

My own thought is Brady and the Pats got busted doing something every other QB and team does - doctor the football. And they should be punished. But this punishment is not about just this infraction. It is the same as in the 5th game of the season, the ref calling holding on a team and saying "but instead of the customary 10 yard penalty, it will be 30 yards because in the 3rd game, the team also had 2 pass interference calls and jumped off sides twice."
I think, for the first time ever, I have to disagree with you Gary.

Was it against the rules to use stickum on your hands in the superbowl? If it was, did he show the refs his hands, have them approved, and then put the stickum on after that? If so, yes. I would strip them of 3/4 titles and ban Jerry Rice.

The football rules you cited (holding, facemasks, RK, PI, etc) are subjective rules. You may disagree with the Referee's opinion of what constitutes a penalty but since the standard is subjective, I wouldn't agree that not getting called for something is cheating.

For the Vikings, was there a rule against putting the football in a warmer to keep it warm? Did they spirit away footballs during the game to warm them up so only they had warm footballs when their offense was on the field? I doubt there was a rule that said "no warming footballs" before they were putting footballs in the warmer. And, when the NFL found out, they said "quit it, that's unfair." And the Vikings quit it.

Again, pumping in crowd noise is not the same as what the Pats did. There isn't an approved level of crowd noise which was inspected, and then fraudulently changed after inspection.

The same is true with what Lavell allegedly did. The OL gloves weren't inspected, approved, and fraudulently changed afterwards. Lavell wasn't running around getting the grass to grow longer after the referees put a ruler on it to make sure it was within specs.

Your examples are the equivalent of trying to say it should be a crime to wear gloves during a robbery. Who cares about the gloves when we already have laws against robbery?

None of these are examples of the same kind of thing that the Pats did. Their footballs were inspected and approved. After they were inspected and approved, someone fraudulently altered the footballs to give the Patriots only a fraudulently obtained advantage over the other team. The footballs were altered so secretly that for a month no one could even figure out how the balls were altered. Furthermore, based on the evidence, it appears that there was a conspiracy to deflate the footballs. In other words, everyone involved knew it was wrong and took steps to conceal their actions. Everyone involved knew it was against the rules. Everyone involved knew they would be in trouble if they were caught. And they did it anyway to gain an advantage. That's what makes this so heinous.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,741 Posts
They had there rings picked out prior to winning as well.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: Dunkem and GaryFish

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,501 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Fair enough Dodger. I used the examples to show that individuals and teams are always pushing the line of the rules. The question here isn't if Brady and the Patriots are guilty. Though there is no evidence to prove it, I believe they jacked with the footballs and should be punished. The question is if the penalty fits the infraction.

Putting stick'um on your hands WAS illegal. There was no pre-game inspection protocol in place because it was just against the rules. But every sideline had cans of stick 'um, and if caught, the refs just said "go wash that off."

There is a rule against using artificial/amplified crowd noise during a game, so teams would have to conspire in the least with those operating the speaker system, to make that happen. And it really can't be done on accident. But those teams got slapped on the hands for doing it and nothing more. Same thing with the Vikings and the ball warmers. Some kind of conspiratorial activities had to happen to get a ball warmer on the sidelines and put the balls inside it. Again, they just got a warning.

As for on the field infractions, receivers are taught to hand fight, position their body, and flop in order to draw a PI call. Defensive backs are taught to hand fight, position their body, and interfere with the receiver, hoping to sell it to the ref that hey didn't commit PI. Jumping off sides is not subjective - and doing so is usually the result of trying to get a jump on the play. But it is breaking the rules.

My point of the examples is that breaking the rules does have consequence, be it 5 yards and loss of down, or a warning to not do something any more, or a fine.

I am neither a Patriot fan, nor a hater. I think they should be punished for this conspiracy to break the rules and by tampering with the footballs after they had been approved by the officials. But I think this penalty is waaaaayyyyy overboard. And for the Commissioner to come in and basically say "You weren't punished enough for when you broke other rules back in 2007, we are going to punish you for that too" is just punitive.

The only good out of the whole deal, is that all fines collected by the NFL, are donated to the United Way. And that is cool. And I think that IF this penalty sticks, Brady's salary for the suspended game should also go the United Way, and not just be retained by the Patriots.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2full

·
Registered
Joined
·
501 Posts
Here is the Patriots response to the Wells Report. I just read it all. Plan for at least 30 minutes to read it. A few laughable points ("deflator" used as a weight loss term), but a pretty good rebuttal to the "evidence" presented. After reading it, I believe all the punishment will be rescinded.

http://wellsreportcontext.com/
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,501 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Interesting read. I know it is a he said/she said deal. But if the Colts had four footballs that measured low as well, and the NFL suppressed that info until now, then this whole thing takes on a completely different look. AND, if a different make and model of pressure gauge was used before the game than was used at half-time? And ALL the balls for both teams showed loss of pressure consistent with differences in temperatures - something that had not previously been aknowledged by the NFL but the Patriots have been claiming all along? ----- Hmmmmmm. Aside from some of the just ridiculous stuff included, there are some pretty interesting points raised there.

So if an arbitrator reviews stuff and says "you know what - the NFL screwed the pooch on this one. Brady and the Patriots are off the hook" - It will be interesting to see if those claiming for Brady and the Patriots to forfeit all of their super bowl titles will have much to say. Or does that even matter at this point and as the 21st century poet Taylor Swift says, "Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate."

Not saying I believe all that the Patriots had to say in their response because some of it is pretty silly. But still - the things mentioning the actual evidence are pretty compelling.

Looking forward to the next chapter in the story for sure. It beats watching the Kardashians!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
I agree that the Pats shouldn't be punished retroactively for something they did before. But I wouldn't give them a pass on this, and I think the punishment is a pass.

You know how this kind of crap perpetuates itself? When they get caught, there are no penalties. If they started to lay out the ban hammer, we wouldn't be seeing this kind of crap happen. Either they are serious about the integrity of the game, or they aren't.

I also think there is a difference in trying to use the rules to your advantage and breaking the rules to get an unfair advantage over the other team. Trying to get a flag isn't breaking the rules. Both players on both sides of the ball do that.

Where there are rules, I think they should be enforced. If they need to start inspecting players' hands for stickum, do it. If they need someone to stand on the sidelines and look for it, do it. If they need someone in the sound booth to watch the crowd noise, do it.

I don't like the Pats, but I don't like them because of this nefarious sort of garbage. They did more here than a minor rules infraction. They subverted the process intentionally and willfully and found ways to overcome safeguards that have been put in place to prevent the kind of thing they did. And that should draw a more forceful punishment than just a 4 game ban, fines, and loss of draft picks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
501 Posts
I guess the main point is the League didn't prove the rules were actually broken. The Patriots statement outlines all the speculation that led to the League's conclusions (or were the conclusions reached first? Patriots make a pretty strong case for this.).

I'm all for punishment where evidence proves wrong doing. But how can you justify any punishment at all where there is nothing beyond speculative reasoning that supports your predetermined conclusion?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,954 Posts
I guess the main point is the League didn't prove the rules were actually broken. The Patriots statement outlines all the speculation that led to the League's conclusions (or were the conclusions reached first? Patriots make a pretty strong case for this.).

I'm all for punishment where evidence proves wrong doing. But how can you justify any punishment at all where there is nothing beyond speculative reasoning that supports your predetermined conclusion?
maybe punishment for Brady stonewalling the investigation? If he takes the league to court, those emails and text messages he has on his phone are fair game! Hope there's no funny business in his marital life either! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,359 Posts
My Opinion is changing some what

Why aren't these finding being made public by the media but other finding are from the same Wells report ?

3 of 4 Colts footballs checked at halftime weighed in under 12.5 PSI by one of the two officials measuring them. Then, they suddenly stopped checking. The other 8 Colts footballs simply, and conveniently, went unchecked.

Officials found both at halftime and after the AFC title clash that, "it's more more probable than not" that the Colts played the entire game with under-inflated footballs.
.
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top