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Ridge- my understanding is the report reflects the current conditions at the many snowtel sites located across the regions. If there is no snow at the sites, and there should be, think how much more snow should be in the areas that still have some.

AF River should be running around 170 cfs. It has averaged less than 40 cfs the past week. 75% of what it should be.....
That makes sense
 

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Discussion Starter · #182 · (Edited)
I'm all for people embracing their religious beliefs in whatever way provides them value. But is this really the answer from the state (and my local commissioner)? Is the state really not going to embrace a meaningful role and accept that they can do more to encourage more water conservation during this historic drought? Wether you believe in it or not prayer inherently relies on the choices outside ourselves at a time in which we desperately need citizens and government to be proactive. This isn't incompatible with water conservation but it doesn't appear to me the governor (on down) are concurrently redoubling their efforts to sincerely deal with this crisis.

Just shaking my head. There are viable options for state and local leaders that abide by whatever political viewpoint they may hold. But solely focusing on divine intervention without challenging us at the same time to rise to the occasion is at best a missed opportunity for real leadership.

 

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I'm all for people embracing their religious beliefs in whatever way provides them value. But is this really the answer from the state (and my local commissioner)? Is the state really not going to embrace a meaningful role and accept that they can do more to encourage more water conservation during this historic drought? Wether you believe in it or not prayer inherently relies on the choices outside ourselves at a time in which we desperately need citizens and government to be proactive. This isn't incompatible with water conservation but it doesn't appear to me the governor (on down) are concurrently redoubling their efforts to sincerely deal with this crisis.

Just shaking my head. There are viable options for state and local leaders that abide by whatever political viewpoint they may hold. But solely focusing on divine intervention without challenging us at the same time to rise to the occasion is at best a missed opportunity for real leadership.


IDK, with respect to governor Cox, he declared a water emergency a month ago IIRC, so he has spent a lot of his bullets already on the problem. From what I understand of Utah water law, he is somewhat limited in additional action, as local water users and rights holders have more power to call the shots. Additionally, attempts at perceived "overrreach" by Cox would send his right wing into a froth, similar to pandemic measures. Therefore, I see no harm whatsoever in this action. Can we do more? Of course, but a lot of it is going to have to come from municipalities and other users.

Now, if Cedar gets a good soaking rain this weekend, I have two young friends with a message for you..........................
 

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Discussion Starter · #184 ·
😁. I'm fine with divine intervention as an agnostic. But I'll expect empirical proof of its existence before I'm converted 😁

I guess I'm at a different point. If you aren't willing to risk political capital to push for better water conservation during this drought than step aside. And I recognize he's done some things but not to the scale of the emergency. And there are ways to appeal to everyone but anarchist and the most extreme of libertarians on this issue.

Why not run a very public water conservation summit with explicit goals and time-frames that are voluntary but public?

American Fork had a successful campaign that solely challenged citizens to skip one month of lawn watering. Imagine if the Governor simply challenged all Utahns to consider doing so? No "coercion" just a shared sacrifice for a shared destiny.

Why not create a public/private partnership campaign that expanded their waterwise campaign that already focuses on municipalities? High profile prizes from businesses like free xeriscaping for winners with entrees solely requiring bills that show water use dropping during the summer of 2021 compared to 2020?

It just seems to me state and local leadership are failing to account for immediate steps that can be taken to conserve water this year. I know my local leadership is working on a pipeline but that's a long term goal for growth. They showed no real public interest in rising to this occasion this year. And all the while we see our number of car washes almost doubling in a single year and long lines everyday! (I know they recycle water but there is waste with every vehicle)

And when that doesn't happen then the Governor's bully pulpit can be used in some pretty eloquent ways. And I'd love to see a real statesman step up and risk reelection because they had the audacity to truly challenge us to do better.

But political courage seems to be rare anymore even with something as universal as water security. It just seems like our government largely has its head down with no energy to instill innovation and shared focus on this very real threat to our state.
 

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Discussion Starter · #185 · (Edited)
And to clarify, I sincerely believe our leadership at every level (with rare exceptions) is missing a rare opportunity that has immense potential to unite us at a desperate moment we need that.

And I recognize the realism in your reply, Catherder. And there is reason for politicians to be gun shy after last year's painful example. This is just the second (if not third) drought and state I've lived in that doesn't seem to want to face some of unfortunate realities of water security. Not a big fan of kicking the can down the road on this one and we had an opportunity to instill some new behaviors in citizens. So much missed potential 😣
 

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A lot of those ideas are worth consideration. I would hope and expect additional action as the emergency continues. Nevertheless, Cox's role in many areas is more advisory, once the emergency declaration has been made. I firmly agree with you about the criticism of local leadership, especially since many do have the stronger ability to actually regulate usage. In our area, I've seen little from local leadership besides some pablum that you "might want to use less water" this year. Here is Cox's declaration and guidance given at the time. I found it a decent start.

Gov. Cox issues drought Executive Order

And to clarify, I sincerely believe our leadership at every level (with rare exceptions) is missing a rare opportunity that has immense potential to unite us at a desperate moment we need that.
I guess in this respect I am more cynical than you. For too many of us, anything that sniffs of being "liburl", "conservative", or taking away from some poorly perceived "rights" will be rejected out of hand. The pandemic emergency (sadly) demonstrated that all too clearly.
 

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Now, if Cedar gets a good soaking rain this weekend, I have two young friends with a message for you..........................

hmmm....Not planning on a conversion I guess. We aren't going to get a soaking any time in the next week...
 

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I think the only one's that are gonna get a good soaking this weekend are some lucky kids at BYU. If you don't know what "soaking" means in regards to BYU students you probably shouldn't try to find out haha. Probably some kind of urban legend anyway...probably...
 

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Discussion Starter · #189 · (Edited)
Where's that ten foot pole.....

To the conversion, that window closed decades ago and is more of a lost cause than hoping politicians work together right now to foster real solutions for drought. But I'm pretty sure I'm on whatever version of the "no fly list" exists as the front door attempts ended a decade ago. Maybe it was my wife crying out of confusion the first time it happened that put the kibosh on trying. 🤣

But I'd definitely take divine intervention about now. Forecasts for 90F, single digit humidity and 30+ mph gusts with these soil moisture levels are not a great sign if someone tries to have a campfire this weekend.
 

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Just shaking my head. There are viable options for state and local leaders that abide by whatever political viewpoint they may hold. But solely focusing on divine intervention without challenging us at the same time to rise to the occasion is at best a missed opportunity for real leadership.
You are a guy that hyper-focuses on words people use and fixate over periods of time returning back to specific wording. I’ll allow you to correct this yourself. That word “solely” used here is very problematic if we care about facts. If we don’t, well, it doesn’t matter much.
 

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These TV news stories typically lack a lot of substance, but this one at least superficially covered some of the points discussed above.

 

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Discussion Starter · #192 · (Edited)
Vanilla,

To be honest, I actually like the accidental homonym so I'm not going to change it. It's making me laugh that I didn't catch it sooner.

But you are correct, it's not accurate as he's done other things as well, ie not "only". I made a mistake there. (Edit: this ironically incorrect and my use of "solely" was not only correct but an accurate reflection of the video linked.)

It would have just been better to say I find his current approach tepid at best and an example of politicians not displaying courage during an emergency that affects us all. If he was a faith leader I wouldn't care about the address being primarily a call to community prayer but as an elected official I expect a more direct appeal to government and civil action. And I find his overall approach underwhelming given the state of affairs. My criticisms of my local commissioner (s) is/are much harsher.
 

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Discussion Starter · #193 ·
Catherder,

Interesting article.

Statewide restrictions would definitely be a huge hurdle in Utah, one that I don't think would succeed and tee up the fights you insinuated.

I wish there were state incentives for my municipality to restrict water at city and county level. That's the sort of effort I'd love to see. Honey not vinegar works well here though that would still attract complaints of "big government waste".

Cox has done what I consider the minimal work needed, including declarations. I would like to see a leader in our faces every week bluntly talking about the situation while encouraging hope through innovation and shared sacrifice. That's small government conservativism I grew up with. It might be a pipe dream now though. To be honest, I'm absolutely appalled that this isn't getting more coverage here but that as much a reflection of Iron County culture as it is anything else. I think I'm getting old and wishing for a sense of shared purpose that just may no longer exist.

I'm not sure anyone else on the scene would do better than Cox with this issue but we need better nonetheless. The implications of this drought are both immediate and far reaching for all of us.
 

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I’m confused. Hardly a single day has passed the last month where at least one of our Utah news agencies didn’t run a story on our dire drought conditions, and every single one includes quotes from the Governor, mayors and others around the state, all asking us to hold off watering and to take this seriously.

An example from over a month ago:

10 days later:

From this week, with a very clear warning:
I could literally post dozens of articles from the last few weeks over various outlets talking about the drought. I’m sorry you’re not seeing the coverage, but it’s been out there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #195 ·
You and I disagree on how a governor can use his messaging, that is fine. I've listed examples of creative solutions and messaging. And I've admitted it could be a result of how messaging is filtered through platforms in Iron County.

Other than that Vanilla, I'm not interested in having one of historic tit-for-tats tonight. Have a good night.
 

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I’m confused. Hardly a single day has passed the last month where at least one of our Utah news agencies didn’t run a story on our dire drought conditions, and every single one includes quotes from the Governor, mayors and others around the state, all asking us to hold off watering and to take this seriously.

An example from over a month ago:

10 days later:

From this week, with a very clear warning:
I could literally post dozens of articles from the last few weeks over various outlets talking about the drought. I’m sorry you’re not seeing the coverage, but it’s been out there.
This! Water systems/districts are the ones who will control water use. Not the Governor. I'm not sure the state actually has the ability to control use. Water rights being what they are.
 

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You and I disagree on how a governor can use his messaging, that is fine. I've listed examples of creative solutions and messaging. And I've admitted it could be a result of how messaging is filtered through platforms in Iron County.

Other than that Vanilla, I'm not interested in having one of historic tit-for-tats tonight. Have a good night.
I’m simply replying to your baseless and unsupported claims.You began by saying that you objected to the Governor relying solely on a higher power. That was shown to be patently false. You agreed. Then your message changed to being appalled this not getting any coverage. I’ve shown that to be objectively false as well.

Now you admit to just objecting to the message. If you just started with you not liking an elected official talking about prayer, we could have got to the point we are at now much more quickly. Lead with the real reason next time. That way we can just disagree in principle from outset instead of me having to prove you objectively and factually wrong. Much easier for everyone that way...

I think Governor Cox has been a fantastic leader. Even on the drought issue, he’s doing what he can in his position. I applaud him. It’s us that need to change our ways, not him. And he’s clearly told us that many times now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #198 ·
Middlefork, I agree on control hence my shock and disinterest in the linked articles state restriction remark. I'm more interested in using the pulpit differently. There are ways to encourage innovation and conservation without exerting control.

My area is lagging way behind on this but even the remarks about lawn watering in the linked articles are largely default recommendations from the state agencies. I've followed the water agencies lawn watering recommendations for years and 2 a week is very common.

I can look at the various water wise programs and see how far we have to go. Most municipalities don't have incentives for removing parking strip turf. Our county only has incentives for toilets and timers.

I'm clearly approaching this differently than others and I'm in the minority. I can live with that. It's a product of several things including my region and how media percolates through even my bubble. So it goes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #199 ·
I’m simply replying to your baseless and unsupported claims.You began by saying that you objected to the Governor relying solely on a higher power. That was shown to be patently false. You agreed. Then your message changed to being appalled this not getting any coverage. I’ve shown that to be objectively false as well.

Now you admit to just objecting to the message. If you just started with you not liking an elected official talking about prayer, we could have got to the point we are at now much more quickly. Lead with the real reason next time. That way we can just disagree in principle from outset instead of me having to prove you objectively and factually wrong. Much easier for everyone that way...

I think Governor Cox has been a fantastic leader. Even on the drought issue, he’s doing what he can in his position. I applaud him. It’s us that need to change our ways, not him. And he’s clearly told us that many times now.
And there is your classic misrepresentation of my idea. You spent a fair amount of time last year trying to approach fellow users differently then pre-pandemic. I'm sorry you choose now to resort to baseless accusations. I am 100% not against politicians encouraging prayer. I stated so sincerely and I stick to that. That is a fabrication on your part. I am disappointed he didn't use that explicit moment to also message about government and civil behavior.

Take care, Vanilla. Treat me and misrepresent my ideas however you want.
 

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Just an FYI......
I was up to my cabin on Cedar Mountain this afternoon. Just got home.
We got about 2 dozen drops about 2:00. And about 1 dozen drops about 3. That was it !!!
Was dark all around and looked like it was hitting over towards highway 89.
Total Bummer 👎
 
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