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I didn't say I had every answer, but those of you resistant to...
Let's get something straight, you don't have the first darn clue what I'm resistant to. I haven't talked about climate change or anything else on this thread, only sticking to the point of the thread and that to talk about snowpack levels. You, true to form, continue to assume whatever assumption fits your narrative and tender ego and have to inject your politics and anti-Utah bias into EVERY discussion you join on this forum.

I'm going to give you some unsolicited advice: shut up. Nobody cares about your hatred for Utah and Republicans and Mormons or anything else. Go find a forum that cares for that crap. Nobody cares.
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 · (Edited)
I don't think anyone is arguing the problem will be solved here.
Geeze what a defeatist.


We humans can remake the world in our own design. Screw mother nature.
We've already "remade" the world so to speak. Most of it just wasn't intentional.

I do have my defeatist moments 😁. I also don't think conservations here about wildlife policy "solve" anything either. Gasp. 😁

But they matter, just like disagreements about AGW.
 

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Let's get something straight, you don't have the first darn clue what I'm resistant to. I haven't talked about climate change or anything else on this thread, only sticking to the point of the thread and that to talk about snowpack levels. You, true to form, continue to assume whatever assumption fits your narrative and tender ego and have to inject your politics and anti-Utah bias into EVERY discussion you join on this forum.

I'm going to give you some unsolicited advice: shut up. Nobody cares about your hatred for Utah and Republicans and Mormons or anything else. Go find a forum that cares for that crap. Nobody cares.
Ill DM you instead. Snowpack is impacted by climate btw. Sorry you're uncomfortable or don't care about worthwhile conversations.
 

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Ill DM you instead. Snowpack is impacted by climate btw. Sorry you're uncomfortable or don't care about worthwhile conversations.
I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of what a worthless conversation is, since I find myself in them almost daily. And I do in fact rarely read anything you post that is "worth while". Most is strictly opinion, stated as fact, and if someone disagrees, which is almost always, you also have the opinion that their opinion doesn't count and therefore is invalid or wrong.
 

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No actually they aren't in Utah. Utah has the 2nd highest per capita water use in the nation.
Forgive me for being ignorant with asking a question. We hear this a lot, about Utahns per capita water use. I don't know how this is calculated -- so it makes me wonder....

If we look at an area that has significantly more rainfall per year than Utah - let's say western New York just for fun (51" of rain per year)- wouldn't they naturally use less water than a place that receives 5-15 inches annually?

Ask someone from western New York if they could help you design a sprinkler system, and they'll give you some funny looks. Tell them you're going to xeriscape your yard, and see if they have a clue what you're talking about.

Again, I don't know how that water use is calculated, so maybe I'm way off base here. I don't know. I just feel that this is a very skewed statistic. I mean, we can look at John Stockton and say that he was the career leader in assists and steals. Karl Malone is number 2 in career points. Guess what? Stockton is #4 and Malone is #1 in all time turnovers.

Right, or wrong, we use more simply because we don't have a surplus of it freely watering our xeriscapes.

I'd wager that I probably use more gasoline (diesel) than a person that doesn't own a vehicle too.
 
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PBH, you’re a classic racist Utahn for posting that stat regarding Karl Malone! How dare you! You Republicans are all the same, and that must mean you hate science too. (How’d I do, 1eye?)

Don’t worry, Malone won’t have that record anymore by the end of the season.

Looks like these storms aren’t increasing much, just holding things steady. Please bring us more!
 

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that's a record I'll actually like to see Lebron break!
 

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As for storms, living here in so. utah, I have to ask: what storms?
 

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Forgive me for being ignorant with asking a question. We hear this a lot, about Utahns per capita water use. I don't know how this is calculated -- so it makes me wonder....

If we look at an area that has significantly more rainfall per year than Utah - let's say western New York just for fun (51" of rain per year)- wouldn't they naturally use less water than a place that receives 5-15 inches annually?

Ask someone from western New York if they could help you design a sprinkler system, and they'll give you some funny looks. Tell them you're going to xeriscape your yard, and see if they have a clue what you're talking about.

Again, I don't know how that water use is calculated, so maybe I'm way off base here. I don't know. I just feel that this is a very skewed statistic. I mean, we can look at John Stockton and say that he was the career leader in assists and steals. Karl Malone is number 2 in career points. Guess what? Stockton is #4 and Malone is #1 in all time turnovers.

Right, or wrong, we use more simply because we don't have a surplus of it freely watering our xeriscapes.

I'd wager that I probably use more gasoline (diesel) than a person that doesn't own a vehicle too.
I posted this link before. It may address your question.

https://geology.utah.gov/map-pub/su...billion gallons per,to compare per capita use
 

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What folks that live in Utah need to understand is that they live in a desert and plan accordingly. Get rid of those nice Kentucky blue grass lawns and place rocks and natural brush and grasses for your landscape. Get rid of those nice green golf courses, yes they used reclaimed water, or so they say but it still take water to keep those courses green. Get rid of the schools football, soccer, and baseball fields and go to a artificial turf. Then you can get rid of all the farmers fields that use flood irrigation. They are getting fewer and fewer and most are now using a sprinkler irrigation of some sort but they use water.

I remember back in the 70's when it was about the same as it is now. They were predicting that it would take 20 or 30 years for the aquifer to come back, then came 1983 and they turned streets into rivers and started pumping water out of the Great Salt Lake, they were afraid that I-15 south of Provo would be under water. I watched as they tore out bridges down around Monroe and the Richfield area because of the water flowing through the creeks and rivers.

You just never know what is going to happen with the weather. The forecasters can hope that they get it right but most times they don't. Where I live they were predicting 7"-12" of snow last night. We got about 2", I've seen it where they predicted a couple of inches and we got a foot.
 

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middlefork -- thank you!

Utah Geological Surveye said:
Although state rankings are good for creating attention-grabbing headlines that inspire water-use awareness, they have little to no scientific merit
How interesting.

And:

Utah Geological Surveye said:
Arid states typically use more water...
who woulda thunk it?

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying that it seems like an obvious thing: we live in a dry state, we're going to use more water than those who live in wet states.

that's not to say that I won't continue doing my naked rain dance on the back porch each evening. So far it isn't working. Maybe I need to try the front porch? :noidea:
 

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What folks that live in Utah need to understand is that they live in a desert and plan accordingly.
You know Critter, I'm guessing that nobody in Utah realized we were in a desert, but this knowledge is going to educate the masses! :mrgreen:

It wasn't until recently that many municipalities wouldn't even allow for xeriscape, you had to have lawn or you could get fined by the city. There are some that still have those provisions on the books. I would totally do xeriscape on most of my yard if they made it worth my while. It's cheaper to pay for the water than it would be to redo the whole thing.
 

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They have proven down in Arizona that if you have enough water you can grow anything.

However all that water comes at a cost that a lot are now starting to have to pay.
 

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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
The thing that matters though, PBH, is the amount of water used compared against the amount of water available. The average is helpful in understanding how we are drawing down our community water sources. Variables like you describe give us context but aren't necessary for making those calculations.

And as you know, the arid west undoubtedly uses more water for things like watering lawns than NY. But as you know, and the averages indicate, that trend isn't sustainable. Just look at Cedar and how our yearly use is running a deficit on our aquifer, enough so that it's actually collapsing.

And per Critter's post...the models not only understand the possibility of such anecdotes but they seem to actually predict such erratic swings. The problem is, the population centers of the Intermountain West and SW can't maintain themselves under such erratic patterns without a massive change to behavior. And our regional food production centers in Southern to Central California are also implicated. 1983 was a great boon to the Colorado River system (almost too much of a good thing) but the trend even with those years included is we continue to be in a sustained and/or worsening drought. If you are reading up on the Colorado River storage system then you know the last few years have gotten us frighteningly close to a new bottom that we really don't have real, long term contingency plans for.

Anecdotes are fun but the science on what is going on with climate change and water trends in the West is pretty well established and doesn't support hesitancy. The science can change with new/better data and analysis but the best science and consensus now is we are warming noticeably and experiencing more and longer droughts. Individuals can choose not to accept that fact but doing so doesn't affect the validity of the conclusions in any fashion. It does unfortunately affect policy given our democratic systems are driven by individual opinions/votes and not science.
 

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All I know is this. I live in the Bear River watershed. It's Feb 4 and the ground at my house is bare. Should be 12 inches of white stuff on the back lawn right now:shock:
 

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backcountry -- if we really want to address this issue on a local scale, then how much water you and I use per day isn't the issue. The issue is growth. When was the last time you heard a local political leader (mayor, county commissioner, city planner, etc.) ever say that they wanted to limit growth? Never. Why is it that we always find realtors moving over into the political arena? Why are there a million multi-family units currently being built in Cedar City / Valley?

Until we hit that critical point where water is no longer available, it won't stop. Everything you just said is correct - but none of it matters as long as we continue to grow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #118 · (Edited)
I don't disagree except on working on what we can despite barriers. But yes, given local politics we are unlikely to see meaningful policy that addresses the issue head on.

I watched this cycle play out in the Denver suburbs and while it will never happen to that scale we are definitely in for a wild, bumpy ride in the next few decades.

Back to what Vanilla said...I don't think we are too far off in Cedar from incentivizing turf removal, at least in parking strips. They'll never require xeriscaping on new development in the next decade but there are other avenues that don't limit personal choice.
 

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Forgive me for being ignorant with asking a question. We hear this a lot, about Utahns per capita water use. I don't know how this is calculated -- so it makes me wonder....

If we look at an area that has significantly more rainfall per year than Utah - let's say western New York just for fun (51" of rain per year)- wouldn't they naturally use less water than a place that receives 5-15 inches annually?

Ask someone from western New York if they could help you design a sprinkler system, and they'll give you some funny looks. Tell them you're going to xeriscape your yard, and see if they have a clue what you're talking about.

Again, I don't know how that water use is calculated, so maybe I'm way off base here. I don't know. I just feel that this is a very skewed statistic. I mean, we can look at John Stockton and say that he was the career leader in assists and steals. Karl Malone is number 2 in career points. Guess what? Stockton is #4 and Malone is #1 in all time turnovers.

Right, or wrong, we use more simply because we don't have a surplus of it freely watering our xeriscapes.

I'd wager that I probably use more gasoline (diesel) than a person that doesn't own a vehicle too.
Yes of course we use more water because it is more dry here, which is further a bigger problem. We are alcoholics on a beer budget that have a taste for fine wine. There is PLENTY this state could do to better incentivize and help the usage per capita of water. Both in municipalities and agriculture.
 

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These minor storms aren’t doing much for us around the state. Mostly just keeping us steady in our “too little water” state. Which I guess is better than nothing if we’re trying to make lemonade here.

There are more systems forecasted the next 10 days. Let’s hope they bring something a little more. That one a couple weeks ago did a decent amount of good. We could use another like it.
 

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