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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have 8 relatives who put in for Pine Valley this year - all with one point. Only 2 people drew. That tells me Pine Valley is no longer an every-other year hunt. Its now every 3 years.

I listened some of the wildlife board meeting today. They are increasing b/d ratios on a number of units including Pine Valley and increasing population objectives on units that have improved. This will basically ensure that tags will not be increased on units that are improving. Meanwhile, it is taking 2-3 years to draw a general tag.

Wake up guys. Trophy interests are eating your lunch. Please contact RAC and board members and tell them to stop finding excuses to get rid of general hunters. Only SFW and its slapees are speaking up and stacking the meetings. All is working as planned.
 

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It's all about the guys screwing the point system not the cutting of the permits keeping you from drawing.

people arw putting in for some lame unit that takes 4 to 10 years to actually draw and automatically drawing their second choice unit every year ahead of first coice applicants.

The reason John Bear and the wildlife board didn't fix the point banking joke system is when they actually combine the point system with le units in the future they will all rise to the top. It may sound like a conspiracy theory but it's going to happen imho. There's been napkin talk about it for a few years.

Do you actually believe he didn't know anything about the point banking?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
swbuckmaster01,

The loop wasn't fixed? I thought they changed it so that someone with more points on choice 2 could not bump someone who put in for choice 1.

I'm not sure of the complete accuracy of your first statement that cutting permits doesn't keep us from drawing. The number was thrown out today in the meeting that going from a 15-17 b/d unit to 18-20 will result in 20% fewer tags.
 

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The fixing of the loop hole was tabled until next year.
 

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provider,
the Southern region was a 3 preference point region before it went to the sub units.
Also, Pine Valley is already a 18-20 B/D unit, not 15-17/100.
 

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swbuckmaster01,

The loop wasn't fixed? I thought they changed it so that someone with more points on choice 2 could not bump someone who put in for choice 1.

I'm not sure of the complete accuracy of your first statement that cutting permits doesn't keep us from drawing. The number was thrown out today in the meeting that going from a 15-17 b/d unit to 18-20 will result in 20% fewer tags.
Not when the unit is already over 20/100 ratio.
Someone is just trying a scare tactic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I stand corrected. The Panguitch and Boulder units are going to 18-20 - not Pine Valley; however, Pine Valley and Zion increased population objectives significantly. I don't think that is necessarily bad if the carrying capacity is there, but it is yet another block to tag increases when the metrics justify them.

I will say I've rarely heard of anyone that could not draw Pine Valley with 1 point.

You can call my statements "scare tactics" its not exactly helpful to the conversation, but you can do that. I'm not trying to deceive anyone. Its indisputable that the most avid hunters are pushing out general hunting opportunities.

I'm not addressing people like Ridgetop here who seems to be fine with the SFW model of wildlife management. If you like it that way, that is your preference. Congratulations on getting your way.

This is nothing more than a note to general hunters who systematically see their hunting privileges yield to SFW and the likes. Speak up for your turf. There are a number of people here who don't want the general hunt to yield to trophy hunting, but they don't express their opinions where it matters. Go to a southern RAC meeting. You will quickly see the meeting is stacked by SFW and there is hardly any dissent. Other opinions need to be heard.
 

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Not when the unit is already over 20/100 ratio.
Someone is just trying a scare tactic.
Actually Ridge, those numbers are darn close. Scare tactic? How about reality. The UDWR could issue more tags on a 15-17 unit compared to a 18-20 unit. So this disallows increases in permits long term. The biologists stated it will result in a 20-25% decrease in permits. Pretty simple.

As for the original statement-- in 2013, 14 of the 30 units took over 2 points to be assured an any weapon permit. That equates to a 3 year wait. It will only get worse.
 

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Actually Ridge, those numbers are darn close. Scare tactic? How about reality. The UDWR could issue more tags on a 15-17 unit compared to a 18-20 unit. So this disallows increases in permits long term. The biologists stated it will result in a 20-25% decrease in permits. Pretty simple.

As for the original statement-- in 2013, 14 of the 30 units took over 2 points to be assured an any weapon permit. That equates to a 3 year wait. It will only get worse.
That's probably the same Biologist that has claimed Unit 29 has increased by 30% in the last 4 years. BS!
The Biologist also said there would be big tag cuts once we went to 30 units in 2012. That never happened and we have actually gained a few thousand tags in the past couple years.
I'm not an SFW member but I do support the idea of having the same quality of buck we had in the 80s and early 90s in the Southern Region.
Yes, I do support 18-20/100 ratios but absolutely no higher.
 

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Actually Ridge, those numbers are darn close. Scare tactic? How about reality. The UDWR could issue more tags on a 15-17 unit compared to a 18-20 unit. So this disallows increases in permits long term. The biologists stated it will result in a 20-25% decrease in permits. Pretty simple.

As for the original statement-- in 2013, 14 of the 30 units took over 2 points to be assured an any weapon permit. That equates to a 3 year wait. It will only get worse.
What happens when they combine the LE and general season point systems, and make you lose your points regardless what choice you choose if you draw a tag?

I don't know the future and neither do you. If they did something like that and people have to make some hard decisions and lose your points when you get any deer tag--maybe it turns it into a 0 to 1 point draw. Point is I see something changing in the future, hard decisions made and this entire discussion being moot until the new systems numbers come into play.

If everything stays the same then your argument has validity, but face the facts, if SFW members are willing to show up to the meetings they are going to get their way. Wasn't UWC set up to counterbalance this? If there were hundreds of sportsmen at each meeting yelling 'opportunity over quality' I am confident that is what you would get. But there is not and those willing to put in their time and show up get their way. You should be upset at fellow hunters that share your views who are unwilling to 'show up' not at an opposing view point who is willing to work.
 

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Apparently people dont remember when we had 5 units the southern took on average 2-3 years to draw? So now the sky is falling smaller units have similar draw odds?

I agree MANY people are milking the system taking advantage of the loophole to be guaranteed tags in other units and it needs to be fixed.


-DallanC
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
bowhunt3r4l...,

Sorry to be abrasive, as I like the way you think, however, what we really need is for you and your buddies to contact RAC members / board members and say its okay to increase tags.
 

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bowhunt3r4l...,

Sorry to be abrasive, as I like the way you think, however, what we really need is for you and your buddies to contact RAC members / board members and say its okay to increase tags.
EXACTLY!!! Those with a voice get heard, if you don't like the system then do something about it. But here we sit on an internet forum complaining with our thumbs up our bums spinning our wheels.

Have I went to a RAC meeting to express my view point--NOPE and I don't complain about the current system either. If I am not willing to do the work and go to the RAC I expect my viewpoint to be ignored and I am ok with this. :)
 

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My thoughts are a general season hunting permit should be sold over the counter. The biologists would determine how many permits should be available for each unit for a given species then that many permits go on sale on a given date. The people who truly want to hunt will be sure to be in line or getting online when the tags go on sale.

There is no point system for buying derby, rodeo, concert or any other kind of tickets. General season hunting permits should be the same way...
 

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Ridge- The cut of tags is 20-30% depending on the unit. The math is fairly simple if a guy takes time to understand it. If you want more bucks after the season you have to shoot less of them during the season. To shoot less of them you have to cut the number of hunters afield. Going off the current ratios that means there will be less hunters afield under 18-20 management then under 15-17.

Airborne- Thanks for the lecture. I've been involved with this stuff for a long time. We had hundreds show up in support of certain topics only to be shot down by the Board. My comment simply was stating that on the road we are headed it will only get worse. You don't agree? As the Unit Plans are modified through this year and the next 4 years, will we see more 18-20 units or less? My wager is more and thus it will decrease permits further. And once we hit a major weather event which kills deer then we will see more tag cuts. Making the wait to draw even longer.

I agree something will change with points. The most ABSURD idea would be to combine general, DH and LE deer points. If the masses allow that to happen then shame on all of us.

So you are correct, people need to engage. Better put might be to "Re-Engage". Problem is how many times are the masses going to make the effort to show up when their voices are rarely heard?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Packout,

I'm sorry your efforts have not produced what you want.

This is my point-of-view to date though.

I went the the southern RAC, i emailed every RAC member, and said I appreciate the proposed tag increases. One RAC member let me know that all the feedback he heard is the opposite of what I expressed. Another RAC member indicated he "didn't want to sound like someone who wants to increase tags" when making a point. I was the only individual who said thanks for the tag increase. A couple of organizational reps said they were okay with the increase and a few said they were not. When the RAC summarized everyone's comments they noted that 95% of the internet feedback did not want tag increases.

When the biologist was being questioned on tag increases, he said they need to balance interests with those who want general opportunities. Comments like that have little traction when there was hardly anyone to back up this point of view.

Its being implied to me by RAC members that nobody else wants a tag increase and I'm on my own. It is clear to me that the RAC's group mentality is adverse to increases.

I feel like I'm standing alone yet when I spend time on this website it seems there are a lot of others who would like to see tags go up when numbers are up.
 

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Airborne- Thanks for the lecture.
You are welcome!:)

I think a flash in the pan of support vs consistent, well organized support is the difference. SFW has one, others don't.

Truth is I don't care what they do with tags, if I have to wait 3 years between rifle deer tags I am fine with that. The state has lots of opportunity out there if one is willing to branch out and expand one's horizon. I don't complain, I roll with the punches and I can hunt bucks and bulls every year. Most guys I talk to would rather rifle hunt once every few years and see better bucks than see nothing every year and I would tend to agree. It's only on this forum that I hear different.

I just like to see folks put their money where their mouth is. It's like when my Bro-in-law complains about Obama, I ask him if he voted in the last election and he says no--I tell him to stop complaining because its obviously not that important to him. Same with many on this forum. Good luck to you.
 
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