Utah Wildlife Forum banner

261 - 280 of 308 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,807 Posts
Now, that's the dumbest question I've heard in a while. But, I will say that if my proposal was adopted, all the reclassified weapons would have been in secure storage and so likely not stolen. Anything else?
So now a safe is not secure storage? What in your world constitutes safe storage?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,889 Posts
Witnesses said it was an submachine gun or automatic.

He continued: "Then we start hearing six to around 10 shots. This made me stand up and actually look at the entrance door and I saw a man with a submachine gun of some sort, an automatic rifle, and he was firing in the open."
-DallanC
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts
So now a safe is not secure storage? What in your world constitutes safe storage?
Oops, my bad. I didn't see they cut open his safe. I wonder what kind of safe it was and how they cut it open. Kinda makes you wonder about gun safes in general.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,512 Posts
Oops, my bad. I didn't see they cut open his safe. I wonder what kind of safe it was and how they cut it open. Kinda makes you wonder about gun safes in general.
99% of the gun safes out there can be opened up quite easy with a $10 grinder and a cutting wheel

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts
99% of the gun safes out there can be opened up quite easy with a $10 grinder and a cutting wheel

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk
Makes sense. I had a bike stolen off a bike rack on my car that was chained up. A cordless angle grinder made short work of it
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,512 Posts
And inside the house you have power available. I actually should of said around 90% of safes.

But with home handymen having these grinders and cutting wheels no lock is safe if someone wants access to something. Even my safe that is made out of 1/4 inch plate can be gotten into. Not as easy as others but it can be done.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,706 Posts
I think the thing Paddler is missing is the speculation is the problem. We don't know the true details on guns used yet and as the article highlights spectator observations can be all over the board. Only time will tell on the actual weapon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
With an angle grinder or cutting torch, not too many safes are impenetrable. They are easier to get into than most people would ever care to admit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts
I think the thing Paddler is missing is the speculation is the problem. We don't know the true details on guns used yet and as the article highlights spectator observations can be all over the board. Only time will tell on the actual weapon.
I'm missing nothing. I understand that it's all speculation. I am accustomed to making judgements based on incomplete information given my profession. But if the witness statements are true, that this was over in two minutes, he killed people and wounded more, and it's thought by eyewitnesses and the police that he used a rifle, and semiautomatics are far easier to get than Class 3, I conclude that he used the latter. Not a shotgun, not a bolt action rifle, or a baseball bat. He used the type of weapon that would be reclassified under my proposal. Any bets? I'll cover them all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts
Just interesting given the previous criticisms of speculation from incomplete information you've lobbed at others in this very thread.
Any bets?;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts
So, the shooter legally purchased the two "assault" rifles. That could not have happened if they had been reclassified. No way he would have passed Class 3 scrutiny. And, BTW, my speculation was correct. Spot on, as is my proposal. It's the most surgical way to prevent these types of shootings and is the least intrusive possible. Or would you prefer bans?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,706 Posts
It wasn't the content of the guess but how speculation doesn't help and how it's hypocritical on your part.

And it appears there were laws in place already that should have stopped those purchases. If it's a failure of the system what makes you think that won't happen in the enforcement of yet another law? The state appears to have failed it's duties in reporting to the feds if reporting is correct.

I think we have to address those realities before adding more complexity to the system. This isn't the first time such processes failed and resulted in a mass shooting.

And it's extremely odd to brag in a post about mass shootings. It serves no purpose and is a little disturbing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts
It wasn't the content of the guess but how speculation doesn't help and how it's hypocritical on your part.

And it appears there were laws in place already that should have stopped those purchases. If it's a failure of the system what makes you think that won't happen in the enforcement of yet another law? The state appears to have failed it's duties in reporting to the feds if reporting is correct.

I think we have to address those realities before adding more complexity to the system. This isn't the first time such processes failed and resulted in a mass shooting.

And it's extremely odd to brag in a post about mass shootings. It serves no purpose and is a little disturbing.
It wasn't a guess, it was a deduction, pattern recognition, if you will. It was based on analysis of multiple similar episodes that I recognized and addressed at least eight years ago and have happened unabated since. Instead of criticizing, you should admit, as you have intimated in previous posts on this thread, that there is a definite pattern to these events. Easily recognizable, and one that demands action. Further, you should do one of two things, either admit the value of my proposal, perhaps offer some refinements, or offer some concrete solutions of your own. I have invited others to come up with what they thought might be a solution to the problem of mass shootings a couple of times on this thread alone, nobody has taken up the gauntlet, yourself included.

It's not clear to me that he was able to purchase the weapons because the state failed to notify the feds. Not sure where he purchased the guns, but the FBI was involved when they took his shotgun away in April of last year. Whatever happened, the system failed. Again. We need to improve the system.

My post was not bragging, not hypocritical, it was to drive home the point that these shootings are perpetrated by a distinct demographic using a particular type of weapon, and I laid out that pattern in my first post on this thread. The fact that your response is to criticize me instead of addressing the problem is disturbing. You have offered precisely nothing constructive regarding possible solutions to the problem of mass shootings. Perhaps you should give it more thought? I thought you had me on ignore? That would perhaps allow you to focus more on problem solving. Be my guest.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,706 Posts
The nice thing about ignore is I get to choose posts I want to see. I ignore most of your partisan ranting and respond to issues of substance.

And its totally fine for a person to take an educated stance that concludes with "I don't know the solution". In this case I'm not convinced your proposal will pass constitutional muster. The only real way to know is to shop it with legislatures and find a sponsor. After almost a decade of having it I'm shocked you haven't done so.

I vote for people I consider acting in good faith on the issue and hope for the best. As it turns out, our sphere of control is minimal on this. Sucks but true. I'm learning to accept that while still being principled. My sphere of influence is also minimal but I do believe it matters to focus on things like facts instead of speculation when dealing with issues like this. I'm imperfect at it myself but it's a standard you yourself have used here and the criticism of posts that fail to be consistent with that is fair game.

The reality is your response ignores the hypocrisy of that. But you seem to have a cute little loophole that allows you to guess, in an educated fashion, instead of waiting a couple days for the agencies to report the details of the incident. You seem to fail to understand that such a strategy undermines your argument. You seem to miss how that very trend is driving burnout, which is antithetical to getting citizens bought into possible solutions.

Best of luck with your idea. Maybe consider not bragging about your educated guess being correct though (the taunting users about betting also undermines the seriousness of the situation) and maybe focus on actual facts as they are made available. It might help convince people better instead of making it about you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
142 Posts
Paddler, I appreciate the thought and effort you have given to this thread. I believe there needs to be a major national investment in mental health issues. My beautiful wife was diagnosed with dementia last year, getting help for her is horrible and expensive. It seems many of these shootings come from individuals with know mental health issues.
Maybe if the mental health care system worked better we could see a reduction in these tragedies.
I believe taxing and reclassifying semiautomatic weapons is not a good idea. If someone is legal to own a firearm so be it. Otherwise people with more money wouldn't be affected and less affluent would be, reminds of a poll tax. Or like charging a higher tax on a 30 pack of beer because someone might drink more and drive drunk. Or taxing fast cars more because people might speed more and cause more wrecks.
Unfortunately there are no easy solutions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,698 Posts
Paddler, I appreciate the thought and effort you have given to this thread. I believe there needs to be a major national investment in mental health issues. My beautiful wife was diagnosed with dementia last year, getting help for her is horrible and expensive. It seems many of these shootings come from individuals with know mental health issues.
Maybe if the mental health care system worked better we could see a reduction in these tragedies.
I believe taxing and reclassifying semiautomatic weapons is not a good idea. If someone is legal to own a firearm so be it. Otherwise people with more money wouldn't be affected and less affluent would be, reminds of a poll tax. Or like charging a higher tax on a 30 pack of beer because someone might drink more and drive drunk. Or taxing fast cars more because people might speed more and cause more wrecks.
Unfortunately there are no easy solutions.
First, let me say I'm sorry to hear about your wife, dementia is a terrible thing for everyone involved.

Back to the topic, trying to prevent other tragedies. As I pointed out before a purely mental health approach would be cumbersome, expensive and inefficient. Alzheimer patients do not, as a rule, commit mass murder. Many on the Right cry out "Mental Health" when these things happen. It's a dodge, a deflection. The very simple fact is that these mass shooting occur because of the nexus between mental illness and "assault weapons". Both are required, neither one alone produce these tragedies. No need to screen the entire population, only those who wish to purchase these weapons need to undergo strict scrutiny. Nobody else. If a waterfowler wants to go to a store and buy an SBE III, no problem. If a big game hunter wants to buy a bolt gun, feel free. If a pimply-faced 19 yo kid wants to buy an AR, pay attention. FBI background check. Home interview by local LEO, including anybody who lives in the home. Guarantee safe storage insofar as possible. Pay the $200 fee. These measures alone would likely prevent these people from even trying to make a purchase. One alternative is a ban, which didn't work before and there's no reason to think it will work now. To have any chance it would have to include guns in circulation, and that is not going to happen. Another is to say nothing can be done, maintain the status quo. In which case the shootings will continue unabated, so brush up on your "Thoughts and Prayers" spiel. The last option is to come up with something better than the above alternatives, and as shown on this thread, there's no interest in doing so.
 
261 - 280 of 308 Posts
Top