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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Wow, several videos on youtube about the hoof rot issue, very sad to watch.
 

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Not saying your assertions are totally baseless, but since the research is incomplete and this is from a different area with totally different chemical use practices, I'm skeptical. From a guy who deals with herbicide damaged plants every day of his life it doesn't look right. The photo's don't look like herbicide damage to me. I immediately see several worms on the leaves and there appears to be feeding damage. Many leaves are green and untouched directly behind other damaged leaves. The photo with the moose shows an irregular "browning" of foliage. If someone sprayed it they did a horrible, non-uniform spray job. Roadside applications typically only get the lower portion of the tree and it is a very obvious damage zone. This tree is not a noxious species so there's no real reason for this tree to have been sprayed with herbicide, maybe with insecticide. Many of the herbicides used do have salts which tend to attract animals including wildlife, however, many of these herbicides are pasture/rangeland approved and in 18 years I have yet to see any damage to domestic animals which are subject to herbicides and pesticides 100 fold more than any biggame species. Pesticide companies (manufacturers or applicators) wouldn't be in business very long if they routinely did damage to nontarget organisms. Looking through the "Recent Posts" to the right of the article it's not hard to see they have an anti-herbicide agenda.

The blame obviously lies squarely on global warming and/or G.W. Bush along with everything else :shock: and since the article is not well sourced it must be absolutely true :mrgreen:. Seriously, I think we need to look a little deeper than this one article from the northwest. I don't think it's an issue here and I question it's severity in Oregon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I witnessed the tree get sprayed first hand by a state road crew. They spray lots of deer and moose favorites, like curl leaf mahogany and bitter brush. I have watched for months as deer, pronghorn, and moose have selectively fed miles and miles of sprayed road ways, and power line right of ways.

These animals do not die immediately, though I have witnessed very severe symptoms in deer that have consumed large quantities of sprayed foliage. The deer in the videos had consumed large quantities of recently sprayed plants. She abandoned a fawn in the process of wondering around in a stooper for days.

Most of these pesticides are documented endocrine disruptors, and affect the hormones of mammals, and other "non-target" species. The affects of hormone disruption include reduced reproductive capacity, and malformations: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/wildlife-malforamations/ These http://rutalocura.com/deer (there are two pages) malformations are endemic to the area where roads and power lines have been sprayed. As one surveys wildlife for these malformations, the most observable malformations decrease in areas of low or no spraying.

Of all the marked Western wildlife declines of the last 30 years, there are several commonalities. Some of these include low hepatic selenium, copper and other micro nutrients, and increasingly, the revelation of exposure to pesticides.

After 20+ years of Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep declining in the Wind rivers of Wyoming, it was demonstrated that nitrate deposition was driving selenium deficiencies, which in turn caused white muscle disease, low recruitment, and pneumonia outbreaks. Hepatic selenium deficiency is indicative of thyroid disruption as well. As are dental malocclusions and leucism which also presented in these sheep. The winter range that these sheep use has been sprayed numerous times over the last 20 years with herbicides.

Selenium is most active in the thyroid gland of mammals. After participating in the role of converting T4 into T3 in the thyroid, any left over T4 is sent to the liver for later use. Because of this, blood selenium content can appear within normal range, while liver (hepatic) levels are deficient. Animals, including humans with thyroid disruption, require higher levels of selenium, copper, zinc, magnesium, and cobalt, because hormone disruption depletes these minerals. Selenium, copper, and cobalt deficiencies are the hallmark of ALL big games declines in ALL of the Western United States. Anything that can further drive a deficiency in any of these things, can in conjunction with hormone disruption drive herds to the brink.

Some documented selenium deficiencies were initially thought to be magnesium deficiencies. Selenium and copper deficient animals have been shown to seek out these minerals respectively. I have recently observed deer, pronghorn, and moose that seek out magnesium as well. They will seek out magnesium over selenium and copper, while selecting for those as well. Some previously recognized deficiencies need to be looked at again, as the situation is probably more complex than previously recognized.

In 2010 large portions of Fremont and Natrona counties in Wyoming were sprayed with Dimilin. Dimilin is an insecticide that is a chitin inhibitor. Chitin is what makes up the exoskeleton of insects. They sprayed dimilin to kill grass hoppers. By spraying during the molting life cycle of the grass hopper, they can not grow a new exoskeleton and they die. The claimed that nothing else would be harmed, yet there were large die offs of birds and other insects including large numbers of bees. Chitin in the exoskeleton of all insects regulates the growth of the insect. So while Dimilin does not kill bees the same way as it kills grass hoppers, it is still kills them. Even though they are "non target" species, that the pesticide producers and applicators say are not effected. Guess what else happened across the entire area of Dimilin treatment? Mule deer declined sharply, and have exhibited antler malformations, hoof deformities, and dental malocclusions.

Some of the highest rates of cactus bucks caused by cryptorchidism that have been studied, occurred in places with documented pesticide exposure. High buck to doe ratios, and flat recruitment accompanied the testicular dystrophy, and antler abnormalities.

The list goes on across multiple states.

This is very complex, with full affects playing out over many years. Because of the time frame, and the multigenerational affects, pesticides had been over looked for many years.

It is not an "anti herbicide agenda" it is a pro-hunting agenda, with the inverse being true as well.
 
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Thanks for the interesting articles. I read "SYMPTOMS AND CONSEQUENSES OF CONGENITAL FETAL HYPOTHYROIDISM IN MULE DEER (Odocoileus hemionus) POPULATIONS" and "CONGENITAL FETAL HYPOTHYROIDISM SYMPTOMS IN PRONGHORN ANTELOPE." The mule deer article only generally mentioned "some chemicals used for pesticides" and "environmental toxins. The pronghorn article specifically mentioned "glyphosate (or Roundup)," a herbicide, as a possible culprit in the birth defects. Glyphosate is among the most widely used herbicides on the market. You mention "Dimilin," an insecticide, which, in my mind, is more likely to affect animal organisms than are most common use herbicides. These articles sound authoritative but they still aren't sourced well as a scientific review would be. I would be interested to know what other herbicides/insecticides (by chemical or name brand) they believe are causing these defects. I'm convinced there are some birth defects occurring but just not convinced of the causes. As a fellow outdoorsman, I'm certainly not for harming non-target domestic or wild animals or humans for that matter through poisoning. You keep researching and I'll keep reading.
 

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I watched a fawn do exactly what that deer in the video was doing in my field. It was just going around in circles for probably 10 hours straight and the DWR had to come get it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
A quick note on Glyphosate, I'll be back later. Glyphosate is a chelator, meaning that it locks up and makes unavailable micro nutrients(metals) This is how it kills plants, it deprives them of these micro nutrients, which weakens them. The plants are then finished off by fungi, bacteria and other organisms. Glyphosate also happens to increase many "bad" fungi, and bacteria, while reducing "good" ones.

Glyphosate essentially induces auto immune deficiency(AIDS/HIV) in plants. The immune system of plants and animals operates on many of the same principles, with many of the same elements, copper, zinc, and magnesium to name a few. The big difference is that plants are a carbohydrate based system where as animals are a protein based system. Plants do not need selenium, but animals do. Ghlyphosate chelates selenium. Selenium, specifically selenoproteins are part of what make us different from plants, but animals have to get the selenium from plants. So mechanically the chelation of selenium is detrimental, and induced by the application of glyphosate.

Of more concern is that glyphostate is an endocrine disruptor, endocrine disruption can drive internal deficiencies of micro nutrients, while external enviromental chelation can exacerbate these deficiencies.

This: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/ecosystem-effects/ is peer edited by people that study pesticides and have PHDs. It is also well sourced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Here is an article from gohunt.com http://www.gohunt.com/read/elk-hoof-disease-has-officials-worried In this article there is a link to well sourced information about Atrazine.

On a side note, they were not looking at antler deformities in WA and OR, in conjunction with hoof rot, two months ago. It was not until I predicted that they should be seeing other things in conjunction with the hoof rot, that the conection was made. There will be further developments as other things are looked at, and other connections are made. A review of elk pictures from that part of world, is showing that there are other things going on as well.

Different manifestations of this are occurring all over the West.
 

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Thanks for the interesting articles. I read "SYMPTOMS AND CONSEQUENSES OF CONGENITAL FETAL HYPOTHYROIDISM IN MULE DEER (Odocoileus hemionus) POPULATIONS" and "CONGENITAL FETAL HYPOTHYROIDISM SYMPTOMS IN PRONGHORN ANTELOPE." The mule deer article only generally mentioned "some chemicals used for pesticides" and "environmental toxins. The pronghorn article specifically mentioned "glyphosate (or Roundup)," a herbicide, as a possible culprit in the birth defects. Glyphosate is among the most widely used herbicides on the market. You mention "Dimilin," an insecticide, which, in my mind, is more likely to affect animal organisms than are most common use herbicides. These articles sound authoritative but they still aren't sourced well as a scientific review would be. I would be interested to know what other herbicides/insecticides (by chemical or name brand) they believe are causing these defects. I'm convinced there are some birth defects occurring but just not convinced of the causes. As a fellow outdoorsman, I'm certainly not for harming non-target domestic or wild animals or humans for that matter through poisoning. You keep researching and I'll keep reading.
Would you spray this stuff on your salad and then eat it? If you answered no you must not be to trusting that they are not harming animals. It is such common sense, spray poison on a plant and it is safe for animals to eat! Not my idea of critical thinking.
 

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It's not just pesticides. It also fertilizers and weed killers.
 

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It's not just pesticides. It also fertilizers and weed killers.
Fertilizers: phosphates and nitrates induce eutrophication of an ecosystem. While technically a separate issue, it is very related to the pesticide issue. Several pesticides, most notably glyphosate, can induce conditions that are identical to eutrophication. This in turn drives micro nutrient availability. In some cases it is hard to untangle which one is causing what condition. Chicken or the egg? or both? Those that have studied this the most will readily admit that the affects from something like nitrate deposition, should not be as pronounced as they are in big game animals. But in conjunction with something else, such as pesticide exposure that predisposes the animal to certain conditions, or weakens its immune system, then the marked affects make more sense.

Weed killer: The term pesticide, has become an inaccurate umbrella term for herbicides(plant killers), insecticides(insect killers), rodenticides(well you know), and biocides(kills almost everything). When the term "pesticide" gets used, it is way too broad.

Many times it is not just a single agent at use either. What I am looking at in Northern Utah probably involves at least 4 different herbicides, with at least two being used in conjunction with each other.

Back in the early 90s, before the big crash, there was a place near Ogden that had an unusual amount of cactus bucks and antler malformations, not to mention high buck to doe ratios. There was every deformity that you could think of. Many of the roads these deer used, and fed along the side of, were sprayed with unknown herbicides. And the irrigation canal that they drank out of, was treated with a biocide called acrolein.

The deer do not always frequent this area, unless the weather drives them to do so. In a drought for example, animals are driven to seek out other food and water sources. This is one of the ways in which weather can add to this problem. Through in some wet years, and you are going to see more spraying to keep the new growth down. Throw in some folks at game and fish departments, in multiple states, that think that you can conserve everything from ducks to bighorns with poisons, and we are pretty well ****ed.
 

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Please define eutrophication. Thanks
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutrophication

A body of water ends up with a high level of nutrients, many of which are phosphate-based, that zooplankton, algae, and bacteria just love. These things overpopulate, "bloom" and use up all the oxygen.

The source of the phosphates can be natural also, say from runoff after a heavy storm.

Fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, insecticides, livestock urine, sewage treatment plants, chemical plant run-off, and a zillion other things cause a body of water to eutrophicate.

In Rich County Utah and Uinta County Wyoming the Bear River, including the Woodruff Narrows Reservoir has eutrophicated to a point that there's not enough oxygen in the water to support trout, whitefish and certain species of minnows and sculpins. In the 80s the river was a blue-ribbon trophy trout fishery. Among other things, low oxygen levels in the Bear keep the Game & Fish from planting trout in the river below the dam.

my story

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I've heard of the problem, just not the term. I understand the Gulf of Mexico has trouble with that south of Lousiana. Thanks for the info
 

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Ever consider that the increase in phosphate in our water is caused by cougar pi s s. ;)
 
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