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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a thought that is a concern of mine and am wondering how many are with me or against me.

I have 13 Elk points and 5 deer points. My deer points except one were accumilated when you could put in for all species but only draw one. I should say 4 points were done earlier and one a while later when the DWR told us that if we had points for another species and didn't put in for that species within 3 years that we would lose those points, so I did one year. They changed their mind and I missed out on being max points. Any way my question is why cant I use the same points for any of the three LE animals and the Goat points that I have for a different OIL animal if I choose to jump ship. WHY are the points species specific?

Let's say that I had 13 deer points but when I started putting in, I didn't realize that Elk would be my passion so I have to give up any extra points that I had on Antelope or Deer and only keep my highest amount for one species but could use it for whatever species that I desired. When I draw, I am out of luck with the points that I once had for a different species as when I jumped ship, I lost those. It might stink for someone who has 7 on one species 4 on another and 2 on the other one. The same would hold true with the lifetimes as I may decide to change from Goat to Bison as my circumstances change especially with some growing older.

Any way, that is my thoughts. What do you think?
 

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I'm all for the points being interchangable, but that might make drawing out more difficult as people could then put one species as a first choice and another as a second. This is good for the guy with 15 points, but increases the applicants to all species and hurts those with less points. Like I said though, I think that points should be interchangeable at least once. Like with you saying that a passion could switch, I don't see why a person couldn't do a tranfer of those points at least once. MHO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What the heck? Is everyone gone elk hunting or why hasn't anyone bit off on commenting on this. If that is the case and nobody cares then I'll propose it as the law. :D
 

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How would you have a five year waiting period?

There are 50,000+ LE elk applicants now, are you saying we need more?

PRO
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Pro,

Ive thought of that and don't have an answer. The thing that I see is more deer hunters being upset from Elk hunters tired of waiting and switching over. The waiting period or the dropping of that part of the bonus system would need to be addressed. I only think that if you can only put in for one species at the present time, then why not be able to switch back and forth if wanted. I think the system was established on the old way and you could put in for more than one animal but only draw one. Now that you can only put in for one and only draw one then what difference does it make if you jump ship. Most will continue to put in for the same animal anyway. It makes as much sense to me to be forced into staying with the same species as if you were forced to stay with the same unit every year. Things change.
 

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If I remember right, the main reason for limiting it to one LE species and one OIL species was to make the odds of drawing better. How many apllicants would there be for a Pahvant elk tag or Henry deer tag if everyone could basically apply for both? The time it takes to draw a 'premium' LE rifle elk tag is 15+ years now, what would it be if all those with 8+ deer points jumped over? My biggest hangup in truth is the waiting period. I can't think of how you could enforce it if you let someone apply for deer after drawing an elk tag, then five years later switching back to elk. That is the same as having no waiting period, which would INCREASE the number of apllicants by roughly 30,000 just for elk. If you change your mind from deer to elk, you have to weight your options and then decide, IMHO. I don't see this EVER getting pushed thru, but good luck if you persue it. Of course now that I have voiced opposition to it, wyo2ut will be on board with you. :eek:

PRO
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'm not trying to push anything through. I am only trying to find some other oppinions or even thoughts that I have missed on why we don't do this. I am sure there are good reasons, I just wanted to know what they were. I just spent a bunch of days hunting deer in a great area and have 13 elk points. I was just wondering why we have to be species specific. I wouldn't mind a deer tag in the area that I was hunting. I wouldn't mind an Elk tag in a couple of areas also. I am just glad that we live in a time with "special interest groups" that have helped us have the BEST hunting units for all of the species in the WORLD. We are very spoiled and i'm not in the "wanting it all" attitude but the "wanting a choice at it all".
 

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Okay...I'll bite. I'd strongly oppose what you're suggesting. If you've got a bunch of elk points, then you've been in the draw for a number of years. If you're going to just jump ship and take your points elsewhere anyway, why have you been cluttering up the elk draw? I believe there's too much clutter in the draws as it is, (non-hunters, party hunters, etc.). We don't need to add to it.

And on the other end, it would add a new dimension to the term "hotspotting". For instance, say word gets out that the sheep are thriving on a unit. Everybody thinks there's better odds of success and that hunting sheep might be fun so they jump into the draw with max points, the results being that the poor slob who's been patiently putting in year after year gets aced out. That ain't right in my book.
 

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Another term that comes to mind is butting in line.

I am of the opinion of the best way to improve the odds of drawing is to find ways to give out more tags w/o lowering quanity/quality. I see primitive weapons as the #1 solution to help make this possible. How much would our deer herds benifit from fewer rifle tags, say by 5,000, while increasing archery tags by 10,000? This would mean MORE tags issued with fewer deer killed. Same goes for LE hunts for ALL species.

PRO
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Now were talking, thanx for the input.

what difference is it if your "hotspotting" on a specific species (which we all do) or in the pool of limited entry as a whole or OIL as a whole?

How could it be butting in line when all of the species started the point system at the same time? It's just that there are more elk point holders than deer because more deer guys have had the opportunity to hunt quality hunts than elk hunters. So if I choose to jump ship to deer, that makes me a butt head when all of the max point deer guys are gone and there are several left on the elk. It makes no sense to me.
 

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So if I choose to jump ship to deer, that makes me a butt head when all of the max point deer guys are gone and there are several left on the elk. It makes no sense to me.
I still fail to see how the waiting period would/could be addressed.

Should one with max moose points be allowed to swap over to deer?

PRO
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I still have no answer for the waiting period except for they could go from no waiting period to any amount of years that was decided.

No, on the other question. I feel that the OIL's and the LE's remain seperate but you could change species within each of the two catagories instead of keeping with the same species but being able to change unit choices.
 

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No, on the other question. I feel that the OIL's and the LE's remain seperate but you could change species within each of the two catagories instead of keeping with the same species but being able to change unit choices.
Why not? What is the difference?

If you have 13 elk points, you could have drawn already if you choose to, so if you are wanting to get in the deer 'pool', get drawn fro elk and start building your deer points up. I am behind a few points because I choose to apply for the ar301 tag. I have to live with the choices I made, not look for a change in the rules after 15 years of being in the game.

PRO
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
There have been two catagories for some time, meaning the seperation of OIL's and LE's. The opportunity to put in for one animal in each catagory has been in place for some time. I just makes sense to me to let a person use there points within that catagory use them for which ever species that they want within that catagory.

I can't believe all of the idiots...........I mean people that screwed up their points witht the AR301. I have spoken with many as of late. (Joking, Joking, Joking with the idiot comment.) :D
 

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I can't believe all of the idiots...........I mean people that screwed up their points witht the AR301. I have spoken with many as of late. (Joking, Joking, Joking with the idiot comment.)
I know what you mean. I was so idiotic I drew it twice and took to bulls over 360 with my bull. What was I thinking? :mrgreen:

PRO
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
proutdoors said:
[I know what you mean. I was so idiotic I drew it twice and took to bulls over 360 with my bull. What was I thinking? :mrgreen:

PRO
I used to have a tape measure like that. You really need to get it fixed or get over to home depot for a new one...............................................Actually congrats. that is awesome. You are one of the few that drew and did well. I have heard more stories of those who regret it.
 

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elk22hunter said:
I feel that the OIL's and the LE's remain seperate but you could change species within each of the two catagories instead of keeping with the same species but being able to change unit choices.
That's a little better. Just thinking here, but would you support a penalty for shifting from one draw to another, say drop a point?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Sorry for not explainging myself better.

That might be an option of dropping a point to make some feel better but there is no penalty for swapping areas amongst the same species so I don't know if that is something that has to happen.

I am just thinking outloud.
 

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I don't see the link between swapping species and swapping units within a species. :?: Elk ppoints go for elk, deer points go for deer seems cut and clear to me.

PRO
 

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On the waiting period they could make you wait on both species you were switching between. Mabey go 2 years on 1 and 3 on the other to split it or even do 5 years on both.
As far as having 30k more elk hunter apps wouldnt that make it 30k less deer/speed goat?
Mabey that last comment was if you could put in for all species?(I just read Pro's comments again and he was talking both species at the same time. My Bad :oops: )

I personally have only drawn out for a cow elk in 7 years and this year alone I put in for 8 hunts. Previous to this year I was one of those people that complained about the system. My brother this year drew out for a Desert Big Horn sheep tag. He drew it with 6 points. Was this fair? After all this is a draw. I am sure all the Sheep hunters with max points would not care for someone with 6 points to draw the tag before them.

I would like to see more opertunity for LE hunts but am on the fence for the right approach.
As for 5k less Rifle tags and 10k more archery tags, that is a skewed view. My father doesnt hunt with archery equipment so now that would lessen his hunting opertunity.
I look at it as less is more. If you had a waiting period for deer and elk tags in the general season then you would have less hunters with higher success. IMHO
Do a waiting period of 1 year for each species and alternate every year so you would hunt deer 1 year and elk the next. I just dont see how they would do it with revenue? I would pay the extra to off set the cost personally.

Russ
 
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