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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After listening to a podcast by Jay Scott, the person he was talking to on his podcast brought up the idea of a conservation preference/bonus point. Currently the dedicated hunter program offers needed labor hours and donations needed for our DWR now days.

My question is would you support or what are your opinions on a conservation points for the draws?

My idea of it would be to offer something like a $25 fee or 5 service hours for general tags and $50 or 10 service hours for an extra point for LE and OIL tags. Providing all service hours were for approved DWR projects and all money gained from these points would go 100% directly back to wildlife. I think a program such as this could do great things for the DWR and wildlife in or state. I would support such a program personally. It allows for money or service whichever you can or chose to provide. It could be a great way for scouting programs to get youth involved in wildlife repeated projects and gain better odds to hunt. It would also allow those who didn't want to pay the fee, not to pay another fee added on top of the ones we already have to absorb yearly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Hell no, we have enough points systems in Utah.

-DallanC
It has nothing to do with another point system, it simply has to do with points and obtaining them while helping wildlife. Wildlife don't happen by accident like most seem to think and the average hunter is more interested in what they can take from a resource than what they can give. Simply put, in most western states fish and game agencies as well as land management agencies are finding their pockets empty. Wildlife must be paid for and hunting must be conservation oriented not the mentality of take the resource and think your tag is funding enough. The sad truth is most aren't willing to dig the extra change out of their pocket to benefit wildlife but instead complain they are already paying to much. Trust me we take far more from the lands than we put in, and I don't think avenues to better fund and take care of the resources is a wrong path.
 

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I don't like the idea of giving points out through "special" avenues and inflating the wait times. I'd more inclined to raise prices a little and cap points at a max set number.
 

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NO! It's just another way for someone to jump ahead of others. Being in the Dedicated Hunter program for many years, the projects are already difficult to find close to town. I've donated tons of hours over and above the required amount. It already take valuable time away from the biologists to get projects approved and reported. Think of the number of hours the biologists would spend getting this done.

Dedicated Hunter hours dropped from 40 to 32. If the DWR needed the help they would have fought to keep it at 40 hours.

What happens to non-residents?

I repeat NO!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I don't like the idea of giving points out through "special" avenues and inflating the wait times. I'd more inclined to raise prices a little and cap points at a max set number.
I just wonder how much it would actually inflate wait times, I'm unsure how many people would be willing to pay extra or do the work.
 

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I know it's human nature to want some kind of reward for every penny and minute we give out, but it's not something we should formalize into any point system! It gives the wealthy and healthy an advantage that many of us wouldn't get and it increases the point creep. Plus, we already know that we should be giving something back to our beloved hobby and it's time we started doing that just because it's the right thing to do! And there are dozens of ways of doing that, both organized and unorganized. All you have to do is ask your DWR Region staff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I know it's human nature to want some kind of reward for every penny and minute we give out, but it's not something we should formalize into any point system! It gives the wealthy and healthy an advantage that many of us wouldn't get and it increases the point creep. Plus, we already know that we should be giving something back to our beloved hobby and it's time we started doing that just because it's the right thing to do! And there are dozens of ways of doing that, both organized and unorganized. All you have to do is ask your DWR Region staff.
The issue is 90% of sportsmen think they're tag fees are all they owe the resource they use. The truth is, it isn't even close to enough. It's like pulling teeth trying to get most of them to pay $35 and become a member of a conservation organization, let alone get their hands dirty for nothing.

Another problem I have is with people who argue about giving those who can afford opportunities to throw more money at the resource. When you get down to it many people in this state vote red and disagree with socialist policies but considering a public resource (wildlife) as an equal right to all citizens despite their status is a very socialist view when you get down to it. The demand far outweighs the resource and the resource is also suffering.

The bottom line is I don't want it to be a pay to play game, but in some respects it has to be to protect the resource and sustain it. I'm sorry, although the $30 combination and $40 deer tag helps but it doesn't pay for all the demands being put on habitat and wildlife these days. I'm not pointing out people on this forum but more in general that think they should give no time or extra money to the resource they gladly take advantage of. I personally believe being a part of at least 1 conservation organization even with a standard membership should be a duty of every sportsmen. I also believe they should donate a little time and money to the resource each year. And last but not least sportsmen need to at least send an email, make a phone call, or write a letter to their representatives defending important funding and programs. Over a years time it really isn't much to ask for places and things that give you a lifetime worth reflecting on.

Now to that many will say they can't afford another $35 a year or an extra $10 on their duck stamp, or a $10 donation a year. Then they'll complain they have a family and busy life and don't have 10 service hours free a year to invest in wildlife. To that I just have to say, then don't complain about the pay to play game, and longer waiting periods. Bottom line is somehow the habitat, wildlife, and future of these traditions have to be paid for and fought for some how, and if you can't or won't do it other ways have to be found to do so. Again I'm not directing this at anyone on this forum but the general thoughts of the vast majority.
 
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I just wonder how much it would actually inflate wait times, I'm unsure how many people would be willing to pay extra or do the work.
The question isn't how many would do it, but how many COULD do it! The problem is that you are setting up draw systems to favor the wealthy...and completely changing the system again and going against the whole idea of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.

I say not just no, but an absolute HELL NO!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The question isn't how many would do it, but how many COULD do it! The problem is that you are setting up draw systems to favor the wealthy...and completely changing the system again and going against the whole idea of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.

I say not just no, but an absolute HELL NO!
How does it favor the wealthy? What a sorry sad excuse. I said either cash or donate your time. If you can't afford the price tag on the point, then do service hour projects for the DWR to get your extra point. This is always the excuse for people who aren't willing to do either. It favors no one, just those more committed to the cause.
 

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How does it favor the wealthy? What a sorry sad excuse. I said either cash or donate your time. If you can't afford the price tag on the point, then do service hour projects for the DWR to get your extra point. This is always the excuse for people who aren't willing to do either. It favors no one, just those more committed to the cause.
It's a bad idea, let it go. The points systems are already overly complicated. There is already constant complaining about other avenues to move up in line. It does favor those willing to pay to play regardless of what you think. It also favors those with more flexible schedules or less demanding schedules.

As a guy who has been in the dedicated hunter program I don't see the need to "create" more service projects so guys can build points faster than someone else.
 
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How does it favor the wealthy? What a sorry sad excuse. I said either cash or donate your time. If you can't afford the price tag on the point, then do service hour projects for the DWR to get your extra point. This is always the excuse for people who aren't willing to do either. It favors no one, just those more committed to the cause.
So, I would have to labor for hours while the rich guy writes a check? Sorry, but your idea favors those with money...

...why is it people need an extra incentive to donate? Put your money where your mouth is. IF you feel like there is such a huge need for money and labor to conserve game, by all means donate. But don't start giving some rich guy with a big bank account more points simply because he has the means to do it. And, don't tell me that I can just donate my time to compensate for that big checkbook. Again, that rich guy spends 30 seconds writing a check...how much time and how much effort am I going to have to donate to equal his check? Hardly an equal or level playing field...
 

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Wildlife doesn't need more money.

And yes wildlife just happens naturally.

Dissolve the DWR ban SFW and eliminate hunting. And wildlife will do just fine.

All wildlife needs is sound policy and that doesn't require pimping tags out to the highest bidder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So, I would have to labor for hours while the rich guy writes a check? Sorry, but your idea favors those with money...

...why is it people need an extra incentive to donate? Put your money where your mouth is. IF you feel like there is such a huge need for money and labor to conserve game, by all means donate. But don't start giving some rich guy with a big bank account more points simply because he has the means to do it. And, don't tell me that I can just donate my time to compensate for that big checkbook. Again, that rich guy spends 30 seconds writing a check...how much time and how much effort am I going to have to donate to equal his check? Hardly an equal or level playing field...
So you support socialist policies? Most believe in capitalism or those who work hard to acheive things deserve them, and Utahn's are known for bleeding red at the voting booth. But when it comes to wildlife, socialism is acceptable correct?
 

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^^^ and education transpiration water and retirement.

But that's all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Wildlife doesn't need more money.

And yes wildlife just happens naturally.

Dissolve the DWR ban SFW and eliminate hunting. And wildlife will do just fine.

All wildlife needs is sound policy and that doesn't require pimping tags out to the highest bidder.
Naturally isn't by accident Iron Bear. Let's not put words in my mouth. By accident they could happen anywhere, anytime. Wildlife need habitat and in your opinion predator control to be successful in populating. Many people have their opinions, but wildlife don't simply exhist because they always will no matter what. It's a fragile system no matter what your opinion is that affects it, and it can be thrown off balance very easily by an exploding human population, along with our economic and political policies affecting these resources. No they simply don't happen by accident in the world we live in and the road we're heading down.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
^^^ and education transpiration water and retirement.

But that's all.
Education is not at higher levels and actually costs quite a lot. As for water, not if it were up to the CEO of Nestle, clean drinking water isn't a right. When supply doesn't meet demand is when things change. And the supply of wildlife doesn't currently meet the demand.
 

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So you support socialist policies? Most believe in capitalism or those who work hard to acheive things deserve them, and Utahn's are known for bleeding red at the voting booth. But when it comes to wildlife, socialism is acceptable correct?
I believe in the North American Wildlife Conservation Model because it is the most successful model in the world and conserving and protecting species. A big part of that model states that "Public access to wildlife, regardless of social or economic status, including hunting, fishing, and trapping is a right of citizenship. This access fosters individual stewardship and provides the funding necessary to properly manage wildlife resources in a sustainable manner." As soon as we give incentive to the rich, this model falls apart. You can call that socialism or anything else you want...but, the access to hunting tags and hunting rights should NOT be governed by who has the most money!

And, for what it is worth, who is to say that the guy with a big checkbook worked any harder than the guy with a small one? And, by the way, I believe equity should be found in a lot of other avenues besides hunting...like education!

A link to that model: http://www.boone-crockett.org/conservation/conservation_NAM.asp?area=conservation
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I believe in the North American Wildlife Conservation Model because it is the most successful model in the world and conserving and protecting species. A big part of that model states that "Public access to wildlife, regardless of social or economic status, including hunting, fishing, and trapping is a right of citizenship. This access fosters individual stewardship and provides the funding necessary to properly manage wildlife resources in a sustainable manner." As soon as we give incentive to the rich, this model falls apart. You can call that socialism or anything else you want...but, the access to hunting tags and hunting rights should NOT be governed by who has the most money!

And, for what it is worth, who is to say that the guy with a big checkbook worked any harder than the guy with a small one? And, by the way, I believe equity should be found in a lot of other avenues besides hunting...like education!
I agree with you, but I think many fail to recognize this is a form of socialism, and many of them agree with it while disagreeing with other things because they are "socialist" policies. What they fail to realize is they benefit from many socialist policies in this nation when it comes down to it.

And I don't believe the guy writing the check worked harder than the guy working the hours, but isn't that how our policies are based?

It's a very successful model and I'm not for giving the rich better odds, I more want to encourage the voluntary donation of time and money before we get to that point.
 

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95% of wildlife in Utah has no organized management effort. And it's doing just fine. I'm talking about the 95% percent of the species we don't hunt. Birds reptiles rodents. There all doing fine without millions of dollars going into so called habitat bs. It's the game species we want more of. And all the money in the world won't give us more so long as policy is wrong.
 
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