I would agree with some of your points I think one way they impact the deer is they kill a lot of fawns.

 

Habitat, Without any question is the #1 issue facing deer..

And yes Kev, I have seen this as well.

Just last week a yote was determined to eat a road side deer kill close
by were I'm at,,And older deer fall prey, especially late winter.

But just last spring I witnessed coyotes working over new born elk caves
like I have never seen in my life! This alone tells me there are just TOO MANY yotes.

 

I don't discount the number of deer taken down by coyotes every year. As a houndsmen Goofy, we both of spend a lot of time with deer on the winter range and we are both seeing the same things. I have seen coyotes that camp on a deer herd and will take down a fawn a night. But I have also seen dead fawns pile up faster than the scavengers can clean them up in bad winters. My question concerns how many of these deer were already destined to die because of malnutrition and disease, and would killing the coyotes feeding on their carcasses do anything to significantly boost the deer population?? I dunno.

 

I hear ya Kev,,Gotta run though.
Still have a couple dogs on the mountain I need to locate

 

How many deer do you experts figure are killed by cougars per yr in Utah? :roll:

Let the understatements begin! :mrgreen:

 

I'm sure the biggest problem is the killing of fawns. When you are trying to grow more deer, a dead fawn is just that dead. It can't grow up to be a fawn rearing doe.

A big coyote contest just before fawn rearing should be in order. Especially in places looking to recover.

I'm sure delicacy would be in order. Doe's trying to recover from a harsh winter would also be pressured and we wouldn't want that. Pressure at the right time may save some fawns.

 

A study done awhile back found that cougar predation on deer was increased because the kills were being stolen by coyotes. The cougar was forced to kill another deer because the carcass was stolen. I have seen coyotes work together and kill mature deer. They are very effective in the killing when working as a pack.

Spending time in Kansas has taught me a lot about coyotes. Kansas has growing mule deer and whitetail deer populations. Kansas also has incredible habitat for deer, which also holds many other animals/birds. Another thing Kansas has is COYOTES! In one day on my last trip to KS I saw/heard (25+) more coyotes than I see in a year in UT. How can they have more coyotes and growing deer herds? Habitat. Habitat. Habitat. Habitat produces prey species-- deer, mice, rabbits, birds, etc..

Where are our rabbits? Mice? Porcupines? Birds? It seems that when these primary prey species decline then coyotes will turn to what is left-- ungulates.....

 

I dont know what impact coyotes are having on the population, but there seems to be more coyotes around this year. I got more coyote pics on my trail cams than I ever have before, even one of a coyote with a fawn in its mouth. I think I am going to my favorite hunting grounds this spring and try to put a few coyotes down, even if it doesnt help the deer it will be fun.

 

I think coyotes have only a small impact on the deer herd. They will prey on a few new-borns and the sick and injured. Often cototes can be seen trailing groups of deer, antelope or elk. Big game animals stir up a lot of rodents as they go about their daily lives and coyotes, fox, and even badgers will flank them for some easy pickings.

Coyotes were nearly eradicated from Illinos by the 1970s. The Mississippi River froze solid in the winter of 78/79 allowing the coyotes to crossed the River into Illinois. Soon after fur prices crashed and certain varmint trapping devices were outlawed allowing the coyotes to multiply rapidly. But increased numbers of coyotes didn't have an impact on the Whitetail deer populations. As-a-matter-of-fact deer populations exploded starting in the early 80s there. But boy, they were the end of the cottontails!

 

What kind of cougar population does Kansas have?

Don't forget 1 cougar kills on average 50 deer per yr. Utah has cougar in the 1000s and so does every other western state with deer populations lower than they were during the 1080 era and before LE cougar hunting.

 

Cars kill more deer than anything by a L O N G shot. Period.

Urban sprawl + I-15 + I-70 + I-80 = Massive deer murder. All three of theses Interstates were completed around 1965 right about when our deer herds started their downward trend. There are other factors but cars kill WAY more than anything else.

 

I'm going to blame it on the hawks. The hawks are so thick in Lehi I've seen up to 200 in one field in one night. Those hawks are eating all the mice and rabbits. The coyotes don't have anything to eat except deer. Coyotes do hunt in packs and will take a full grown deer down if they want.

You want to grow animals you attack all the predators. A unnatural predator prey base will increase prey base. why do you think these pointy headed anti hunters are all for not hunting hawks, wolves, ect. It leaves man out of the picture.

So save a deer shoot a hawk! :shock:

 

I don't believe the Coyotes kill many deer during most of the year. During Fawn Crop season, I think they can be devastating. I went to a DWR meeting where this was discussed and they mentioned that there was a small band of does, numbering around 20. Each doe had a fawn and some had multiples. Within one month of keeping an eye on them, EVERY fawn was dead from Coyotes. I feel that is our problem as well on the front. Seldom do I go that I don't see or hear the yodle dogs. Very seldom do I see fawns as well. Lions don't prey on fawns. They prey on "Deer". Coyotes are much more devastating than people give them credit. The front is infested with them little suckers.

 

Cars kill more deer than anything by a L O N G shot. Period.

Urban sprawl + I-15 + I-70 + I-80 = Massive deer murder. All three of theses Interstates were completed around 1965 right about when our deer herds started their downward trend. There are other factors but cars kill WAY more than anything else.

Bob -- I'm not disagreeing with you. But this always makes me wonder...

Obviously, Interstate freeways have cut migration routes for deer herds. But only for those deer herds that the interstate freeways cut. What kind of effect does I-15 have on a unit like the Boulder Mountain?

I know that this is part of the equation, and I understand that even remote areas have paved highways where deer mortality is increased, but it certainly isn't the only factor. Urban sprawl obviously impacts those units with urban sprawl, but we have other units that this would be considered minimal.

So, considering some of our remote units where the herds are in trouble, what is it? Habitat? predators? harsh winter conditions?

 

I’ve never seen a coyote kill a deer but I have seen bloody tracks all around lots of dead deer. Blood quits flowing after an animal has been dead very long.
I have watched attempted kills. I saw a couple coyotes circle a cow and calf (moo cow) for nearly twenty minutes one day before they trotted off into the brush. The cow stood at attention looking toward the brush for nearly an hour before she settled down (I had ran home and got a rifle in the mean time). The coyotes apparently gave up. Several times I have seen coyotes in the same area run a herd of deer out into a hay field and keep them moving around for hours before wandering off. I’m sure any sign of weakness and they would attack.
I too believe the coyotes have more competition than they used to. There are more birds of prey but the biggest increase I see is in Ravens. There are a lot of them now days and from I see they kill a lot of small mammals.

 

I think it's difficult to make blanket statements on this issue because different units face different challenges.

The key is that it's all about habitat and other prey species, not just coyote vs. deer numbers. For example one unit may lose some key fawning habitat due to either over wintering use (deer and elk), fire or drought. Coyotes will make fawns a larger part of their diet because they are easy to kill. In that case coyotes will need to be thinned or deer numbers will go down but it doesn't necessarily mean they are over populated. In another unit other prey species may be on the decline and coyotes are faced with searching for other food sources and target deer more and they will need to be thinned.

On other units coyotes aren't a problem. In some units cats are a problem. They beauty is the division is working very hard at being able to identify these problems through classifications. High fawn mortality could signal a coyote problem, high adult mortality could signal a cat problem. In some cases they may not mean there is a predator problem but rather could indicate we need to thin predators to help other lower mortality rates while deer deal with some other problems.

Based what I've seen though I do believe coyotes have a sizeable impact on many units IMHO.

 

How many deer do you experts figure are killed by cougars per yr in Utah? :roll:

We don't know how many deer cats kill a year....what we do know is based on adult doe mortality whether or not cats are impacting deer numbers. If your adult doe mortality is less than 15% per year then cats aren't killing enough deer to hurt deer herds in most cases. Some units do have some cat problems. If your fawn to doe/adult ratios look good then predators aren't having an very big impact on deer numbers at all. Just for you I didn't even mention additive vs compensatory.

Have you heard about the changes to the cougar plan? Does have been collared in key locations around the state. The division will monitor mortality rates and use those numbers to drive cat management.

You may not know exactly how many cookies your kids take when you aren't looking and you may think they take a whole bunch...but if every time you check the cookie jar very few are missing then it's hard to argue they are taking a whole bunch.

 

Interesting post Kevin, and good discussion and some great points being made. I have no doubt yotes are having a big impact on mule deer throughout the west, but it may come in ways that aren't being investigated fully. Like Packout said, habitat is one key issue here. If the deer don't have the proper feed, they come out of winter in weak condition and are very susceptible to predation, especially from yotes. And along those same lines, the pregnant does will also come out of winter malnourished and many die during and after birth of their fawns. Those same fawns soon succumb to predation or die of malnourishment as well.

What about the areas where habitat is in good condition and other factors such as vehicle deaths and human encroachment are not applicable? Again, I believe predation may be the key factor, but it may not be from directly killing the animals. If the predator base is substantial, whether it be yotes or cats or a combination of both, the ecology of fear comes into play (this ecology of fear is even more devistating when it comes to wolves and ungulates). The scenario Cooky mentioned with the yotes and the cows takes place every day to some point with predators and ungulates, but during the winter and early spring this magnifies the problems. Yotes and cats will stalk and harass the deer to a point they are pushed off their feed throughout the winter, creating a situation where malnutrition becomes a real threat. It can be a cycle that is very difficult to overcome for the deer/fawns, and the causation of slow/no growth for the deer herd.

The environment is a very complex web of life with a variety of factors to consider. Like Bull said, it's tough to make a blanket statement of cause and effect, but I am convinced yotes are a huge problem to our western deer herds. For the sake of brevity, I'll leave it at that for now

 

I don't believe the Coyotes kill many deer during most of the year. During Fawn Crop season, I think they can be devastating. I went to a DWR meeting where this was discussed and they mentioned that there was a small band of does, numbering around 20. Each doe had a fawn and some had multiples. Within one month of keeping an eye on them, EVERY fawn was dead from Coyotes. I feel that is our problem as well on the front. Seldom do I go that I don't see or hear the yodle dogs. Very seldom do I see fawns as well. Lions don't prey on fawns. They prey on "Deer". Coyotes are much more devastating than people give them credit.

+1

Coyotes wreak havoc on fawns. Not as much or severe on mature deer, even though it does and can obviously happen. I'm in So. Utah and trust me, coyote predation on deer IS a problem and it all starts with the fawns. It's second only to winter kill for fawns IMO. With vehicle collisions in 3rd place.

 

Vast areas of the state have experienced no significant development in the last century and yet herds are also down in those areas. My vote is increase human pressure legal, illegal, and road kill. Varmits also put pressure on the herds. 1080?

One thing I find interesting is when I grew up in Herriman back in the day we never had deer in town. Now the folks place looks like a deer zoo. Bountiful the same. I think deer adapt to some habitate change better than we think.

 

Coyotes absolutely have an impact, but that may not be the real issue. If predators are taking a higher than normal toll on prey, its not always a predator issue. Is it supply side, or demand side? It makes a difference. With the case of coyotes vs deer, is it weak/vulnerable(underlying issue) deer fawns(supply), or is it the coyotes(demand) them selves that are the issue. Studies have shown that intensive hunting of coyotes leads to bigger, more aggresive coyotes. Intensive hunting aside, a vulnerable population would also be a boon for coyote numbers. So a combination would be very bad.

What I witness in my part of the world(we have quite a few coyotes) is that they tend to do real well hunting yearlings, not fawns. About the time yearlings get booted, they start dropping off to coyotes. The current year fawns seam to do pretty well, but if this goes on year after year, it would contribute greatly to flat numbers. This pattern appears to be a function of when coyotes get tied down with pups. So if you kill breeding pairs of packing coyotes in the spring, the rest of the pack may not get "tied down" with pups, and are then free to focus on roaming and hunting. This of course is not statewide, and just a small piece of the picture.

With deer numbers in general, decade long statewide flat numbers may be the thing to look at. You can grow plants without dirt, so.........

 

I found this on facebook today. Very intersting photos about coyotes killing deer.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 073&type=1
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150421402378074.359229.61468073073&type=1

 

That buck in my oppinion would have to be sick. This kind of behavior is not the norm. For him to go down to one and then another Coyote seems too strange. For them to take out the Fawn population is not strange.

 

That is actually a smart hunting tactic. One bite to the main artery in the leg and he would be dead in minutes!! A coyote could do that while chasing a deer. It doesnt take much to punchure that artery.

 

Someone may have stated this, I didn't take the time to fully read everyone's posts, but coyotes are hunting in packs and getting a lot braver. A family friend trees mountain lions down outside of Tropic for the state. He told me that he notices that coyotes will kill a deer and then move on, not finishing it all. Leaving it there for other critters, all the while pursuing another deer to kill.
I agree with what was previously stated though, that habitat or the lack thereof is the number 1 killer.