Utah Wildlife Forum banner
1 - 20 of 101 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,645 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Based on the discussion in the other threads, it looks like there will probably be an increasing push to make general elk tags a drawn opportunity rather than an annual tech-support nightmare. If that's the writing that's on the wall, I think it might be useful to discuss the logistics of how the draw might work (so we can have good ideas ready to pass on to the RACs/WB when they start discussing it).

Here are a few ideas I've had:

1: Create a new preference point category for "general elk". These points would not be linked specifically to spike or any bull - you could use them to go for either, and change from year to year if you want. Leftovers would be sold OTC.

2: Create preference points each for spike and any bull. You must pick only one each year. Leftovers sold OTC.

3: Full random draw, no points. Leftovers sold OTC.

My preference is #3. I'm curious to see what others think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Based on the discussion in the other threads, it looks like there will probably be an increasing push to make general elk tags a drawn opportunity rather than an annual tech-support nightmare. If that's the writing that's on the wall, I think it might be useful to discuss the logistics of how the draw might work (so we can have good ideas ready to pass on to the RACs/WB when they start discussing it).

Here are a few ideas I've had:

1: Create a new preference point category for "general elk". These points would not be linked specifically to spike or any bull - you could use them to go for either, and change from year to year if you want. Leftovers would be sold OTC.

2: Create preference points each for spike and any bull. You must pick only one each year. Leftovers sold OTC.

3: Full random draw, no points. Leftovers sold OTC.

My preference is #3. I'm curious to see what others think.
Currently spike and any bull tags are completely separate, correct? I would think the draws should stay separate, so I'd go #2.

I'd prefer #2 to #3 just for fairness. If you miss this year, you get better odds of drawing next year.

There should also be a set number of resident vs non-resident tags.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,242 Posts
If they must..... i'd say run it like general deer. Keep things to the same general season standard across the board.

That said, i'm hoping theres an alternative to a draw, or First come first serve OTC. For the life of me I can't think of it though. I like having a guaranteed tag every year. I literally, live to hunt. All winter I look forward to spring turkey, all summer i'm scouting for fall, and all of fall i'm hunting multiseason because I suck and can't fill my tag.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ns450f

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,816 Posts
I dislike more points, paying for more points, and more entitlement because people have points. I also would like to see some fairness in distribution.

For General Elk, I'd say those who didn't have a permit last year get preference in the permit distribution over those who had a permit last year. Once those who didn't get a permit last year have their chance to obtain one then the rest can try to purchase the leftovers. This could be done in a draw or still maintain online sales, with those who didn't have a permit the year before being able to purchase the day before.

I think we are years away from there being more than 60,000 people demanding an elk tag.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,442 Posts
My vote is for #3 - everything else is based on points, can't we just have one true random draw in the state?? ;)

When elk goes to a draw, I'd expect it to align mostly with how the general deer draw operates currently. I'd like to see the any-bull, multi-season, and spike tags all be in the same draw - leftovers are sold on a first-come-first-served basis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
843 Posts
I dislike more points, paying for more points, and more entitlement because people have points. I also would like to see some fairness in distribution.

For General Elk, I'd say those who didn't have a permit last year get preference in the permit distribution over those who had a permit last year. Once those who didn't get a permit last year have their chance to obtain one then the rest can try to purchase the leftovers. This could be done in a draw or still maintain online sales, with those who didn't have a permit the year before being able to purchase the day before.

I think we are years away from there being more than 60,000 people demanding an elk tag.
So are you saying I should have to wait to buy a rifle spike tag this year since I chose to buy an OTC general archery tag last year with an unlimited quota? Or would that only apply if I had a gun tag last year?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,798 Posts
No matter how it is set up you are going to have those who are going to complain.

I like the idea of combining all elk points and draws into a single draw. Anterless and bull tags together. Then if someone wants to spend a bunch of points on a cow or calf they can if not then they can put in for a bull tag, or if they have a bunch of anterless points and want to spend them on a bull elk tag then let them. I know a number of hunters that play the point game on anterless and quite often have 2 elk tags the same year. They put in for areas that a lot of other hunters won't hunt so their odds are greater in the anterless draw. With this suggestion they will be down to a single chance per year for a elk tag.

With the point creep on the anterless tags something is going to have to be done with them. If hunters want more opportunity they may have to settle for just one elk tag every few years irregardless of the sex.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,816 Posts
So are you saying I should have to wait to buy a rifle spike tag this year since I chose to buy an OTC general archery tag last year with an unlimited quota? Or would that only apply if I had a gun tag last year?
No. I'd think it would just be dealing with any-weapon/ml/multi. As archery is unlimited, I wouldn't see a need to consider those.

Of course this is all just ideas thrown around. I don't want a draw and spend another $40-50 for apps/points. Then deal with all the games played with the draw system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,928 Posts
No matter how it is set up you are going to have those who are going to complain.

I like the idea of combining all elk points and draws into a single draw. Anterless and bull tags together. Then if someone wants to spend a bunch of points on a cow or calf they can if not then they can put in for a bull tag, or if they have a bunch of anterless points and want to spend them on a bull elk tag then let them. I know a number of hunters that play the point game on anterless and quite often have 2 elk tags the same year. They put in for areas that a lot of other hunters won't hunt so their odds are greater in the anterless draw. With this suggestion they will be down to a single chance per year for a elk tag.

With the point creep on the anterless tags something is going to have to be done with them. If hunters want more opportunity they may have to settle for just one elk tag every few years irregardless of the sex.
I could see limiting a hunter to one elk tag per year be it LE or general or antlerless. I don't want to see "get any elk tag and lose all points"
I don't think the situation in Utah is dire enough to make a radical change like that. I think most the point creep on antlerless is caused by people having to draw their favorite area rather than hunt a less known area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
How about there being a chance to buy a Lifetime Elk license before elk tags go the way of the deer tags, just like the option offered in the early 90’s before deer draws?
Yea, right…..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,242 Posts
How about unlimited tags, but arbitrary rules on hunting equipment to make the hunt harder. 🤡
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,543 Posts
Interesting question. Of the ideas you've come up with, I like #1 the best philosophically--just let people apply for a general elk tag. However, I think that will be complicated to actually implement because different units have different restrictions. Logistically, I think it makes the most sense to go with #2 and require people to apply for certain units (like general deer).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
If you are going to move General season Elk to a draw, Step 1 is to rename it and drop the word "General" from it. It would at that point be just another LE unit but without spike tags.

-DallanC
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,682 Posts
The "general" tags are mentioned as such because it is during the "general" rifle season. If you named it differently, I'd think you would have units to name (same as the "general" deer units) Break the Elk tags up for archery, muzzle-loader, and rifle. The archery could still be unlimited for tags, but the rifle and ML would have to be draw and you would apply for an ANY BULL or a SPIKE BULL tag.

The other issue by going to a draw is.....If your applying for a LE Elk tag, and a GS Elk, you draw the GS tag will it remove you from the pool of the LE tag you applied for???? That would have to be a separate thing of its own I'd think. I guess it all depends on the draw order of species. I know if you apply for a LE tag and a OIL tag, and you draw the LE it eliminates you from the OIL opportunity.

It's a big ball of yarn that is unraveling and someone is trying to wind it all back up nice and neat.

I would vote for option #3 above.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
i'd like to see some data first. how many unique ip addresses were trying to purchase an anybull tag? i'd guess there were many less than total devices trying to log in.

other ideas that probably aren't very good:

split each season in half and sell first half, second half tags (rifle, muzzle, and hams)
that creates more tags and gets more people out hunting without overcrowding.

i realize this creates more tags and could put more pressure on elk but have you seen the harvest numbers? it's not like we're as deadly as we think.

i love and use the 3 season tag in years i don't get an antlerless tag but ditching it would help somewhat. if you were to survey hunters with the 3 season tag i'd bet 75% were archery only hunters before its inception.

edit: no preference points. we've seen how well those work. it's like moving the population of LA into SLC without any infrastructure changes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
I could see limiting a hunter to one elk tag per year be it LE or general or antlerless. I don't want to see "get any elk tag and lose all points"
I don't think the situation in Utah is dire enough to make a radical change like that. I think most the point creep on antlerless is caused by people having to draw their favorite area rather than hunt a less known area.
that is an interesting idea. what would you think about having tags for both general bull and antlerless in certain areas but you hunt is over after you take the first elk, similar to the 3 season tag ends when you get the first kill.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,928 Posts
Most regulations now are for "hunter management". The reason multi-season, hunt antlerless during other seasons/tags, control tags, PL tags exist is to kill elk that are not being killed in numbers that meet the objectives otherwise. It is a pretty hard balancing act.

So far I think they have done a pretty good job. But those that complain of hunter crowding are as much or more to blame for all the hoops as the amount of elk themselves.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
310 Posts
Maybe people should quit being lazy and drive to a store. Every year people on here make it seem like some big ordeal to buy there OTC elk tag. But I have never had to wait more than 10 minutes to buy a tag over a real counter.

Maybe they should change the name of the tags to OTK, over the keyboard.

But seriously, if someone really cares about scoring there OTC elk tag than they should be able to find 30 minutes to drive to a store.
 
1 - 20 of 101 Posts
Top