[BigT]

Again -- I think there is more to this story. What prompted the DWR to do this, this fast, with little input and time for doing it right? Who's pulling the strings here??

I'm not a shed hunter - so I don't really care if the season start date is delayed. My fear is what's happening behind the curtains. I think there's more to it than just sheds.




Yep. It makes me wonder....

I agree with your assessment. I don't mind the closure but I think it could have been better thought out. Take Wyoming for example, I can go shed hunt most of Wyoming right now. Just not the southwest part of the state. I think a statewide closure is ridiculous personally. I think there's parts of the state that ought to be closed to shed hunting, locating, gathering, whatever. But I can go out to the west desert and there's not much snow at all if any. I love to get out in late February, March, and April and hike the desert hills. Periodically I come across a shed. Nothing says I can't still go hike, but just can't gather a shed. Like others have said, it would be hard to prosecute someone for "locating" a shed while out hiking. But there's not a hike I go on where I don't have a small pack, and my binoculars.

 

[middlefork]

PBH, I'm curious what nefarious reason you think they postponed shed hunting for?

As for the wording, I would think it would be a pretty simple change to make. But maybe it takes a committee to get it right.

 

[Wyo2ut]

Yeah, he has the conspiracy portion of my mind working now too....so, what is going on right now? State Legislature has been meeting...State Natural Resources (Including the DWR) just had their budgeting meeting this week with legislature?? Could this be politically driven by state legislators? Inquiring minds would love to know...

 

[PBH]

PBH, I'm curious what nefarious reason you think they postponed shed hunting for?

Well....that's exactly what I want to know. I don't know. I guess it's just the pessimistic Jazz fan inside me that says there is more going on than what we see on the surface. Again, I'd like to hear the conversation with the biologists that suggested this.

Are we having a "hard" winter? Sure, I'll give on that. We do have a lot of snow on the ground, and temps have been cold. But isn't that winter? -- and it's something we've all be desperately needing, and something that is coming closer to "average" than we've had in a long time! Why only close it this year? Why not a permanent season date change? If shed gathering is the demise of our deer herds, why allow it at all? Was the original shed season premature and a detriment all along?

Is this peer pressure? From who? What group? What was their agenda -- was it only sheds? Who has that kind of power? Is our DWR just a group of puppets? Is that what we, as residents of Utah, want our DWR to be? Maybe it's time to just get rid of the DWR, and turn over management to private interests, county governments, or special interest groups?

This decision just doesn't sit right with me. That's what I know.

 

[middlefork]

So who do you ask? Have you talked to your biologist, representative or local napkin meeting leader?

Here's my thought. Just maybe the biologists monitoring the deer in Rich and Summit counties realized that they were struggling this year and needed to be helped with feeding. And now others are feeding in Cache county. And maybe the biologists doing the collaring studies have seen some trends that are concerning. This leads to having discussions and just like that somebody suggests delaying shed hunting might help. Why not? It just might help a little.

I don't shed hunt. I have in the past picked up found antlers while out hiking or hunting in the summer but I would say fewer than ten total. So no bother to me if they want to close it or change the dates.

If it weren't for past problems created by over zealous shed hunters it might even be a non issue.

 

[Vanilla]

Again -- I think there is more to this story. What prompted the DWR to do this, this fast, with little input and time for doing it right? Who's pulling the strings here??

I have no idea, and for my analysis of what is happening, it doesn't really matter. I'm not advocating for or against a shed closure, I'm simply looking with a critical eye about how they went about it. If they truly think people being out with the deer right now is detrimental to the deer, they should regulate ALL things they have power to regulate. And if they are going to make an emergency rule about shed gathering, they probably need to word it better and not make it about deadheads, which are already covered in other rules.

As for the intent of the biologists...I have no clue. But I'm guessing if you asked them, they'd suggest a shed season starting in April or May every year. I don't have any intel on that, it's just a gut feeling. I know when they did this in 2017 there was A LOT of talk about making the shed season permanent. We'll see what happens this year.

 

[backcountry]

Yes that’s a reasonable response. And what I assume would happen in that situation. But if that’s the spirit of this new law, then can’t we all agree it needs to be reworded to remove any confusion?

That's a fair conclusion and approach. I would support a rewording by whatever mechanism that requires. I don't believe anyone wants to infringe on hiking and the fact you have eliminated such activity in the past because of these orders would hunt others are possibly doing the same. That should be avoided on the agencies part, to the best of their abilities.

And I definitely don't hate shed hunters. I know good people who find value in it and the state generally supports the activity. I do prioritize the herd over shed hunting as I explained earlier.

I even ideally support what JC describes I just look at the current picture and recognize the public has huge influence on what's possible now and the near future. And we don't have enough of a public consensus in Utah to make it safe policy for resource managers. And push comes to shove, these are careers influenced by their individual needs. Expecting civil servants to place their necks on the cutting block like that is a huge ask for the vast majority of them. Utah's public input process for Wildlife has made that all but impossible. With the caveat that I'm speaking of the wildlife professionals not the politically appointed members of the agency; I think we should expect them to actually fall on the sword more often.

 

[Sawbillslayer]

I am going to get a lot a hate for this but this closure needs to happen every year. The shed antler season shouldn't open until after April 30 every year. There are big game hunts from August to January let them have a break from getting chased for 6 months.

 

[Isuckathunting]

I am going to get a lot a hate for this but this closure needs to happen every year. The shed antler season shouldn't open until after April 30 every year. There are big game hunts from August to January let them have a break from getting chased for 6 months.

I agree but only because I enjoy the tension and anger it brings to the influencers and social media shed hunters.

 

[Vanilla]

Vanilla, as you stated, many people are passionate about shed hunting, I agree. You are (or I would assume from post's) are passionate about fly fishing. What if the DWR closed fishing to all fisherpeople when the fish are in the spawn. (I know it's a weird scenario) to boost the survival rate of the eggs being stomped on the redds from fishermen.

I think this illustrates my point I've been trying to make pretty well, actually. Suppose we had an endangered or threatened species and fly fishermen in certain areas wading in the rivers were hurting recruitment during their spawn in the month of November.

Would the DWR prohibit fly fishing for the month of November for the entire state? Or could they limit that to areas where these fish are truly threatened?

Also, we can assume that this fish is in every stream statewide for purposes of our discussion here. Would it make sense to prohibit fly fishing in all rivers and streams statewide, but allow duck hunters to hunt those same rivers and streams, also wading and their dogs jumping across those very same redds? It wouldn't make much sense, would it?

That is my point here. If you have to close the winter range to human access to protect deer, do it. But that is not what has been done here. Again, I realize the DWR is limited in their regulatory powers, but if they are making this decision, they need to make it for all things in their power, not just the fly fishermen while letting everyone else go wade through those redds and destroy the recruitment anyway.

 

[Wyo2ut]

I think, though, that the difference between the fish you are speaking of and deer and turkeys is that the deer and turkeys aren't always in the same areas. In other words, the turkey hunters aren't always wading the same streams. We have plenty of areas where hunting turkeys in the spring will have zero impact on deer. Like you are talking about making a statewide blanket policy or regulation of outlawing shed hunting, ending spring turkey hunts statewide seems silly too because not all turkey hunting will impact deer. So, regulations that try to draw those kinds of distinctions will potentially really muddy the regulations waters...

...I totally understand the point of making the rule the same for all recreationists across the board. But, simply eliminating one group of those recreationists--the shed hunters--can and will have a positive impact.

 

[truehaun]

I am going to get a lot a hate for this but this closure needs to happen every year. The shed antler season shouldn't open until after April 30 every year. There are big game hunts from August to January let them have a break from getting chased for 6 months.

Why don’t we close some big game hunts in October-December and give them a break? Why is one type of recreation being punished when another is allowed? At least shed hunters are not intentionally killing an animal which all hunting does. Also as it stands now anyone can get a cougar tag and go hiking all they want, but if they “locate” a shed then now they’re a criminal. That’s my main problem with this amendment.

 

[Vanilla]

Like you are talking about making a statewide blanket policy or regulation of outlawing shed hunting, ending spring turkey hunts statewide seems silly too because not all turkey hunting will impact deer.

I've said this twice now, I guess I'll say it a third time. I am not asking for turkey hunts to be ended. Quite the opposite, actually! I have a LE turkey tag this year for the first time in my life, I promise I don't want the DWR to pull the rug out from underneath me and my plans to kill a bird on April 8th.

I'm saying that the shed gathering prohibition probably ought to end prior to allowing hunters into the same areas.

*Edit - It seems very silly to me that I can go into the hills pursuing game with a gun, causing whatever disturbance in the area I want, but the line on my effect on deer is drawn when I bend down to pick up a shed antler I see while pursuing gobblers. But that is only if this is about the deer, and not about the political stuff the heppies suggest we should be conspiring about.

 

[Wyo2ut]

Why don’t we close some big game hunts in October-December and give them a break? Why is one type of recreation being punished when another is allowed? At least shed hunters are not intentionally killing an animal which all hunting does. Also as it stands now anyone can get a cougar tag and go hiking all they want, but if they “locate” a shed then now they’re a criminal. That’s my main problem with this amendment.

We do close some big game hunts in October-December. Every year! That's a silly argument. Every "hunt" including "shed hunting" has seasons. No one would stop you from "hunting" sheds in May. You still have a very long shed "hunting" season. It has just been pushed back. The idea of the shed hunting closure is to keep "hunters" from intentionally going into winter ranges and looking for sheds. This law will do that.

 

[truehaun]

We do close some big game hunts in October-December. Every year! That's a silly argument. Every "hunt" including "shed hunting" has seasons. No one would stop you from "hunting" sheds in May. You still have a very long shed "hunting" season. It has just been pushed back. The idea of the shed hunting closure is to keep "hunters" from intentionally going into winter ranges and looking for sheds. This law will do that.

Are cougar hunters not going to be in some of the same ranges that deer and elk winter? What about turkey hunters? If a cougar or turkey hunter “locates” an antler that is unlawful under this new amendment. I don’t see how pointing out the problem with that makes me the bad guy. Also there are deer and elk hunts that go into November and December. Why not close those and give them a break.

 

[justismi28]

This feels like a scenario where logic should prevail, but clearly isn't. I doubt any officer is going to cite you for seeing a shed if you are out hiking or cougar hunting or whatever activity you are doing. Because how would they know you saw a shed?

The shed antlers aren't going anywhere. Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to wear full camo to sneak up on them and find them. Where they fall in the next couple weeks is right where they'll be the first of May. If you happen to see one, and go back in the area and pick it up later, there is no evidence or proof that it had previously 'located', nor would there be any accusation without evidence. If you see enough while hiking, you're going to forget some of them so have you truly located it?

What we can all agree on, is that it's very poorly worded. Now, a logical conclusion is that the interpretation of the law by officers and judges will be that it wasn't intentional to find horn. We've already heard a first hand account of how a deadhead situation was handled by another member.

Some of the emotions tied to this decision are creating an unconscious bias towards the situation resulting a victim mentality. The horn will still be there in May. #hashtags in May can trend just like they do in March, and you can still get that clout.

 

[backcountry]

I look back at my career trajectory 20 years ago and I am so glad I had a health issue derail it. I'm using exaggeration for effect but you couldn't pay me any normal amount of money to enter that field anymore. The golden age of wildlife management is so far in the rearview mirror you can't see it anymore.

I will again highlight I'm speaking of the trained wildlife professionals, not the political appointees. But why would any such public employee risk making major policy shifts in the current climate? I don't remember a single big policy in the last five years in which "they" didn't get accused of malfeasance or incompetence. I seriously can't.

So why would they ever close all hunting so broadly to protect one species if this is the response to one user group being effected for 3 months? I get the logic and totally could see the benefit but you are asking someone trained for the sprint to suddenly run a marathon here.

If we are solely talking about ideals for the future then I am on board. Let's learn from this and challenge our hunting community to think more broadly. Count me in for that conversation.

If we are talking about what the agency should have done with this exact emergency closure with the tools and precedent they currently have then I don't know what to say.

If we want such landscape scale management, and it has very real benefits, than hunters are going to have to adjust their input and expectations accordingly. These folks get the unique ability to work with our wildlife but their influence and ability to facilitate change will always be filtered through the finite realities of the bureaucracy in which they are situated. Hopefully folks that are really invested in these types changes will start working now as the soonest we are likely to see change is next winter and realistically we are talking outwards of 2025 and later. And make no mistake, our herds are going to continue to experience these scenarios and the stakes will only get higher.

*This convo has helped me realize I'm realistically done with applying for buck tags. You couple these types of issues with increased competition, sprawl and AGW and I see almost no benefit to sinking my energy into it. I'll focus on upland, elk and maybe antlerless. But in looking to the future I just can't imagine getting my daughter into deer hunting to only have to spend decades with such diminishing returns. I'll keep her out of that unintentional ponzi scheme of sorts because she's never likely to see a return on that investment.

 

[truehaun]

To the lawyers in this thread. https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter13/23-13-S2.html if under title 23
(6) "Big game" means species of hoofed protected
wildlife.
And
(9) "Closed season" means the period of time during
which the taking of protected wildlife is
prohibited.
And

48)	"Take" means to: (a) hunt, pursue, harass, catch, capture, possess, angle, seine, trap, or kill any protected wildlife; or (b) attempt any action referred to in Subsection (48)(a)

Then does the NOTICE OF EMERGENCY CHANGES
TO THE 2023 UTAH BIG GAME APPLICATION GUIDEBOOK
ESTABLISHED BY THE WILDLIFE BOARD
FOR TAKING BIG GAME have no authority over regulating shed antlers like this? Shed antlers are not “big game”.

 

[truehaun]

In the “NOTICE OF EMERGENCY CHANGES
TO THE 2023 UTAH BIG GAME APPLICATION GUIDEBOOK
ESTABLISHED BY THE WILDLIFE BOARD
FOR TAKING BIG GAME”
the director states that Under Section 23-14-8(4) the director has
(4) authority to declare emergency closed or open seasons in the interest of the wildlife resources of the state.
Under 23-13-2. Definitions.
As used in this title:
(6) “Big game" means species of hoofed protected wildlife.
Shed antlers aren’t “Big Game”
(9) "Closed season" means the period of time during which the taking of protected wildlife is prohibited.
Are shed antlers “protected wildlife”?
(38) (a) "Protected wildlife" means wildlife as defined in Subsection (54), except as
provided in Subsection (38)(b).
(b) "Protected wildlife" does not include
coyote, field mouse, gopher, ground
squirrel, jack rabbit, muskrat, and raccoon.
Wildlife defined in section (54)
(54) "Wildlife" means:
(a) crustaceans, including brine shrimp and
crayfish;
(b) mollusks; and
(c) vertebrate animals living in nature, except feral animals.
Shed antlers aren’t “wildlife”
So from what I can tell the director does not have the authority to regulate shed hunting under 23-14-8(4) because again
“(9) "Closed season" means the period of time during which the taking of protected wildlife is prohibited.” Shed antlers are not protected wildlife.

 

[johnnycake]

I honestly don't care enough to go look, but I'm willing to bet that there's something that addresses animals "and animal parts" being within DWR's authority. Look at the definition of "carcass" as not all states require the animal to be dead to be considered within the scope of the carcass.