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I have a question I cannot seem to find an answer for. If you put in for Gen Deer tag and do not draw your first choice, but draw your second you don't loose your points plus gain one, that is clear. My question is will your points help you on your second/third choice or do you have to wait until all first choice apps are drawn and then if there are tags left you are eligible to draw one?

Thanks in advance
 

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Yes, your points will give you an advantage when drawing choices 2-5. You have stumbled upon the loophole that has a number of people frustrated with Utah's preference point system.
 

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It seems like it is a number of internet forum people who have the biggest problem with it.

I told a few friends about it and their response was "really? that's awesome. I'm going to do that."

Most people outside of the forums have no idea of the loophole IMO.
 

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It seems like it is a number of internet forum people who have the biggest problem with it.

I told a few friends about it and their response was "really? that's awesome. I'm going to do that."

Most people outside of the forums have no idea of the loophole IMO.
I agree. I was oblivious to it until I got on here.
 

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Three types of people:

Those who missed the boat---Don't like the loophole
Those who got onboard early----Love the loophole
Those who got on board early but say they hate the loophole-----Filthy liars:D


-----SS
 

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Three types of people:

Those who missed the boat---Don't like the loophole
Those who got onboard early----Love the loophole
Those who got on board early but say they hate the loophole-----Filthy liars


-----SS
You forgot type 4

Those who have had their head in the sand and have since discovered it and are on board loving it. I'm in that group :) I'm not going to miss out on another rifle hunt like I did last year until it is shut down.
 

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Those who got on board late are in the best situation! Think about it... they are so far behind the top point holders that it will take forever to finally hit that top point pool.
I've hunted every year since 2009 and even burned my points once to guarantee that my whole group drew a specific tag. Now back in the game, since I am so far behind I should draw my second choice tag for darn near 30 years before I ever have a chance at that first choice I put! I'm in a pretty good spot!

I'm an advocate for change to this system, but until that happens... game on Wayne!
 

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I just show pity on someone who missed the boat each year and let them apply with me so we are both guaranteed our 2nd choice but out of the running for our first choice after splitting the points.

See what a nice guy I am?:mrgreen:--------SS
 

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Thousand Lake Plateau any legal weapon.... 1-25.5 odds for general season hunt. Funny how applicant numbers keep going up each year as the odds get worse....
 

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Call me a dumb *** but I've put in every year for a tag/unit that no one wanted.Always under subscribed as it was under objective, there were no deer etc.
Last year for the first time it sold out because everybody that couldn't draw their first choice used it as a second so they could hunt the extended. Does that now bug me that I might not draw the unit I want to hunt because someone else playing the game decides they want that tag as 2nd choice just to hunt the extended. Never even setting foot in the unit they draw? BS as far as far as I'm concerned.
But never fear this old dog can still learn new tricks.
 

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I don't use it because I'm dedicated, but i do use it for my daughter.
 

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It does suck, it is BS, it is unfair, it should be changed, etc etc. The moral to the story here is that if you want to get the most out of the very limited opportunity that we all must share, you have to spend some time figuring things out and be a little savvy. Just as important as actual scouting is application scouting. You can't hunt what you don't have a tag for. Those who study the odds and those who study the rules will always have an advantage over those who don't put a second thought into applications until the last week of February.

I put more energy and effort into the western big game draws than in my financial portfolio. You reap what you sow....I will probably never get rich but I will surely hunt every year.------SS
 

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It's about as unfair as a taking a deduction on your taxes. Or knowing where good deer hunting is.

It's no secret how this works and is available to anyone who chooses to take advantage of it.
 
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Those who got on board late are in the best situation! Think about it... they are so far behind the top point holders that it will take forever to finally hit that top point pool.
I've hunted every year since 2009 and even burned my points once to guarantee that my whole group drew a specific tag. Now back in the game, since I am so far behind I should draw my second choice tag for darn near 30 years before I ever have a chance at that first choice I put! I'm in a pretty good spot!

I'm an advocate for change to this system, but until that happens... game on Wayne!
This describes my situation to a "T" or however the phrase goes. Did the same thing for a group App. and it worked out well for us. Since the Wildlife Board and the DWR seem totally disinterested in doing the right thing and fixing it, it seems like one has no choice but to use the situation to his advantage. Game on is right!
 

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If you look at last year.

The Unit to put in for your first choice is Fish Lake Thousand Lakes the unit only gave out 32 rifle tags and took 4/5 points to draw. Only 667 residents applied for it as a first choice. That means that 635 people were truly potentially rigging the system.

Others are just drawing one of their 4 other choices and gaining a point. Most other rifle units are a good chance at 2 and almost a sure thing at 3 points. So, unless you were one of the 635 people odds are that you weren't really rigging the system for rifle and were fortunate to draw your other choices while gaining a point.

Out of the 86,550 permits, that isn't a lot.

I think people may be blowing this idea way out of proportion.
 

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Muscle...
You start gaming the system when you draw that rifle tag that takes 2 or 3 points EVERY YEAR for the next decade (or more) because you've got the points but it's your second choice instead of every three years like the guys that list it as their first choice!
 

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Call me a dumb *** but I've put in every year for a tag/unit that no one wanted.Always under subscribed as it was under objective, there were no deer etc.
Last year for the first time it sold out because everybody that couldn't draw their first choice used it as a second so they could hunt the extended. Does that now bug me that I might not draw the unit I want to hunt because someone else playing the game decides they want that tag as 2nd choice just to hunt the extended. Never even setting foot in the unit they draw? BS as far as far as I'm concerned.
But never fear this old dog can still learn new tricks.
I would bet if you looked at the numbers, I think it may be a bi-product of the hunt becoming more popular than someone scheming the system to take advantage of it.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of scheming in the draw stats, it is more of people drawing their second choice.

I bet if you took a straw poll of Utah Residents and asked them how many General Season Deer Points that they have. A surprising number would say they didn't know that general season had deer points. A number would think that they lost their deer points after drawing their second-fifth choice from last year. A number would think that the general season points allow them to apply for the Henry Mountains.

The issue is people not reading and just applying, then complaining when they do not draw. Or throwing all five choices around at different hunts to try and draw one of them without having a plan or reason - just hoping to get a tag.

The hunter that can read and do the research in all states draw systems can hunt every year. The hunter that chooses not to read and chooses not to do the research in different draws, will not hunt as often.

Right now, it isn't a participation trophy. It's a game (as all draws are) and if you want to win you have to succeed with the rules and find ways to be more efficient with the rules.

It's like a guy that has been putting in for a Arizona Rut Elk Hunt for 20 years with probability of drawing of 1% being mad at the guy that drew a late season hunt in the same unit in his first year with a probability to draw of 25%. To the guy it isn't fair he is still waiting for his elk hunt, but at the same time in those 20 years he could have potentially hunted the same unit with the later date 2/3 times and been guaranteed to hunt it at least once.

Is the system fair the way it is? I believe so

Are there people abusing the system? Not as many as people think

It all comes down to being mad when you don't draw and there isn't a system other than OTC where you are not mad when you don't draw. Unless you are just taking shots in the dark to hunts with horrible draw odds.

End Rant
 

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Catherder... there's no impetus to change it. I've watched and listened to WB meetings where guys behind the mics joke that they draw their second choice tags every year. They are @ss deep in this too & if they close the "loophole" their just like the rest of us... and we all know they won't let that happen!
 

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Muscle...
You start gaming the system when you draw that rifle tag that takes 2 or 3 points EVERY YEAR for the next decade (or more) because you've got the points but it's your second choice instead of every the years like the guys that list it as their first choice!
Right now at 32 permits a year a person at 2 points playing the system can hunt for 7/8 years before drawing the Fish Lake Thousand Lakes Rifle Tag.

If you take FL 1000 lakes away, then people that wanted to rig the system would load up on Zion or Pine Valley - which has a max points of 3. Unless you go the group route, you will lose your points every 3/4 years.

Given on 635 people were potentially rigging the system in Utah (http://www.biggamedrawodds.com/big....ral.deer.plateau.thousand.lakes.unit.25B.html), I don't think it would be as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

There may be a select few rigging the system, but the numbers say that less than 1% could be doing it.

People are just flinging apps at all units and gaining points without realizing it, until they draw their unit finally.
 
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