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It's Heisenberg. :rolleyes:

And FWIW, I have more books in my personal library about it than most folks could imagine to read on the subject.

Vanilla, the lawyer in you gravitated to my "all" statement. Fair enough, I should have known not to use hyperbole when debating you. ;) However, that type of hyperbole is exactly what we hear in these debates. The point am making is that an all out war on predators like we hear advocated here is not going to save the herds. The coyote bounty program was instituted before the recent population decline. Did it save the herds and prevent the recent decline? Nope. Have we gotten our moneys worth? I have to wonder. I have no problem increasing cat and bear harvest. That has been done too. But what good will it do if the fawns/calves are starving?

As for the differences in the study, yes, that is a viable question to ask. Maybe both are accurate. Maybe the 71% predation one was too high. Maybe this years study is more rigorous and is more accurate. As for your "14 dead, 8 unknown" notation, that is important too. It is pretty easy to see if something has been gnawing on a carcass. The "unknown" ones will be clearly non predation deaths. And hey, don't bash the (BYU) cougars. They do a few things right, like on last Saturday night. ;)
Thanks my bad spelling The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal
 

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I've been scouting elk all summer on the North Slope and have seen a ton of deer in the 9000'-10500' range. Usually 4-5 per trip with several 3-4 point bucks mixed in there.
 

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Compensatory vs. additive predation...where are we? The idea that if we kill so many lions we are saving so many deer is simplistic at best. Often times, mortality rates stay the same even if predation goes way down. Many studies have shown this...
 

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Back to the original topic. The Uinta's (North Slope) are my preferred deer unit. I spend as much time up there as possible because I love the scenery and the type of habitat. It is a very challenging deer hunt and I have a few ideas why this is.
One thing to remember is that the preferred habitat of mule deer is sage brush and transitional areas. Apart from recent burns, the Uinta's are full of fairly old growth forests up to the alpine. The last time these forests were disturbed on a large scale was the logging done in the early 1900's, with some beetle kill being removed since then. There is a lot of plant diversity and healthy habitat in the alpine/wilderness areas, but these areas are truly only open to the deer from late July to early October during normal years. Couple that with competition from elk who are better suited to this type of habitat and you're going to have low densities. The sheep grazing up top is also horrendous for the deer and I have seen alpine habitats that have yet to recover from large herds that were on them all summer over five years ago. The other thing to remember is that just across the border into Wyoming there is some pretty fantastic mule deer habitat and a lot of private land. This creates a sort of sandwich, great habitat just across the border in Wyoming, mediocre to poor habitat in the mid elevations, good habitat in the alpine, but little time to access it.

On the note of predators, I highly doubt predator densities are very high in the Uinta's, due to low prey densities. There are a fair number of coyotes, but they spend more time harassing sheep than the deer. In fact I watched a coyote two seasons ago make a beeline for a herd of sheep and jog right past a doe and a fawn that were bedded in a meadow. If there are predators having an effect on the north slope herds they are likely targeting them in winter in Wyoming.
 

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I've been scouting elk all summer on the North Slope and have seen a ton of deer in the 9000'-10500' range. Usually 4-5 per trip with several 3-4 point bucks mixed in there.
So a ton of deer now is seeing 4 to 5 deer

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So a ton of deer now is seeing 4 to 5 deer

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Seems ok for a few hours in the woods. You have guys here saying they're seeing 2 in a week. I hike into my trail camera and spook a handful everytime.

I dunno, maybe I'm scouting elk in the wrong place :ROFLMAO:
 

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This thread went south in a hurry. Last time I looked at a map, the Uintah's aren't that close to the Book Cliffs. I think I'll go fishing. :unsure:
 

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Back to the original topic. The Uinta's (North Slope) are my preferred deer unit. I spend as much time up there as possible because I love the scenery and the type of habitat. It is a very challenging deer hunt and I have a few ideas why this is.
One thing to remember is that the preferred habitat of mule deer is sage brush and transitional areas. Apart from recent burns, the Uinta's are full of fairly old growth forests up to the alpine. The last time these forests were disturbed on a large scale was the logging done in the early 1900's, with some beetle kill being removed since then. There is a lot of plant diversity and healthy habitat in the alpine/wilderness areas, but these areas are truly only open to the deer from late July to early October during normal years. Couple that with competition from elk who are better suited to this type of habitat and you're going to have low densities. The sheep grazing up top is also horrendous for the deer and I have seen alpine habitats that have yet to recover from large herds that were on them all summer over five years ago. The other thing to remember is that just across the border into Wyoming there is some pretty fantastic mule deer habitat and a lot of private land. This creates a sort of sandwich, great habitat just across the border in Wyoming, mediocre to poor habitat in the mid elevations, good habitat in the alpine, but little time to access it.

On the note of predators, I highly doubt predator densities are very high in the Uinta's, due to low prey densities. There are a fair number of coyotes, but they spend more time harassing sheep than the deer. In fact I watched a coyote two seasons ago make a beeline for a herd of sheep and jog right past a doe and a fawn that were bedded in a meadow. If there are predators having an effect on the north slope herds they are likely targeting them in winter in Wyoming.
I also believe cows and sheep are a bigger problem with deer carrying capacities then lions and bears are at reducing the deer numbers. Some of these sheep and cow grazing areas look more like a strip mining operation.
If the forage is gone the deer starve! If deer starve the predators starve!

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I also believe cows and sheep are a bigger problem with deer carrying capacities then lions and bears are at reducing the deer numbers. Some of these sheep and cow grazing areas look more like a strip mining operation.
If the forage is gone the deer starve! If deer starve the predators starve!

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You know what else is a problem? Shooting little bucks. Year after year. Let’s talk about that, shall we?
 

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You know what else is a problem? Shooting little bucks. Year after year. Let’s talk about that, shall we?
Horn size doesn't do jack chiz in the grand scheme of things when it comes to growing a deer herd! If that were the case the henry mountains would have the largest growing deer population in the west and it doesn't

Its all about carrying capacity of the land!

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Compensatory vs. additive predation...where are we? The idea that if we kill so many lions we are saving so many deer is simplistic at best. Often times, mortality rates stay the same even if predation goes way down. Many studies have shown this...
That is intuitively wrong. Take out half the lions and the deer numbers stay the same???? Show me the pertinent study.
 

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"Predation is a much misunderstood ecological process. Most people confuse the act of predation with the effect, believing that the killing of an individual animal invariably results in a negative impact on the population (Figure 1). This view is frequently wrong, and ignores the complexity of predation at the individual, population, and community levels. At the individual level, predisposition refers to characteristics (e.g., poor body condition, inadequate cover, disease, etc.) of individuals that make them more or less likely to die from predation or any other cause. Predisposition influences whether (or how likely it was that) an individual would have lived if not killed by a predator. The greater the degree of predisposition, the less likely the death of a predated individual would have any effect on the population. Predisposition is necessary for predation to be compensatory, or substitutive, at the level of the population. Compensatory mortality means that instead of adding additional mortality to the population (i.e., additive mortality), increases in predation result in compensatory declines in other causes of mortality. Hence, the overall survival rate of the population is not decreased, so predation has little effect on the population."
 

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Here is a summary from your first reference: When deer populations appeared limited by predation and such populations were well below forage carrying capacity, deer mortality was reduced significantly when predator populations were reduced.
yes, true...but that is NOT always the case. Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. In the above scenario, you are talking about additive predation not compensatory. Hence, my first question in the post above.
The sentence above the one you quoted: "A deer population's relationship to habitat carrying capacity was crucial to the impacts of predation. Deer populations at or near carrying capacity did not respond to predator removal experiments."
 

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Here is a summary from your first reference: When deer populations appeared limited by predation and such populations were well below forage carrying capacity, deer mortality was reduced significantly when predator populations were reduced.
Here is a summary from your second source: When deemed necessary, predator control can help a dwindling deer population recover.
Neither source comes close to supporting your statement.

For analogy: If the deer herd does not decline after taking out half the lions then hunters should be able to kill all the deer they want as the herd will not decline. Completely nonsensical.
 

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When deer populations were below carrying capacity....that's the key. When below, they can. When not below, they won't. Again, is the predation additive or compensatory. Newsflash: it is NOT always additive.
 

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Same document:
"Conversely, there were similarities where predator control was not effective or its effectiveness at improving mule deer populations could not be measured. These included: 1) when mule deer populations were at or near carrying capacity 2) when predation was not a key limiting factor 3) where control failed to reduce predator populations sufficiently to be effective and 4) where control efforts were on large-scale areas."
 

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Same document:
"Conversely, there were similarities where predator control was not effective or its effectiveness at improving mule deer populations could not be measured. These included: 1) when mule deer populations were at or near carrying capacity 2) when predation was not a key limiting factor 3) where control failed to reduce predator populations sufficiently to be effective and 4) where control efforts were on large-scale areas."
Better read this again carefully. It does not support your position. You are trying to baffle me with BS.
 
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