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Just following precedent.
OK....uh...hey, if you guys don't knock it off I'm gonna move this thread to the "Hunting outside of Utah" section for less exposure.

That's funny right there; I don't care who you are.

top of da page, finally.

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Discussion Starter · #42 · (Edited)
For years and years Agent Orange was what we all used as a defoliant; farmers, pipelines, railroads, mines, highway departments, everybody.

It's outlawed in the USA now, but if you know yer way around you can still get it.
2,4-D + Triclopyr= Neo-Agent Orange

Trichlopyor is 2,4,5-T with a nitrogen molecule added to the chlorine ring. This is what they did to get around the 2,4,5-T ban. Tryclopyr is sold under the trade name Garlon, and is favored as a defoliant on right of ways.

Tryclopyr


2,4,5-T


But they don't ever use this stuff in large quantities on right of ways, right?

What happens when you mix 2,4-D with Dicamba? More potent and dangerous than Agent Orange? They sure seem to have latched onto this stuff about 20 years ago..........
 

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2,4-D + Triclopyr= Neo-Agent Orange

Trichlopyor is 2,4,5-T with a nitrogen molecule added to the chlorine ring. This is what they did to get around the 2,4,5-T ban. Tryclopyr is sold under the trade name Garlon, and is favored as a defoliant on right of ways.

Tryclopyr


2,4,5-T


But they don't ever use this stuff in large quantities on right of ways, right?

What happens when you mix 2,4-D with Dicamba? More potent and dangerous than Agent Orange? They sure seem to have latched onto this stuff about 20 years ago..........
I'm familiar with Garlon but I thought Dicamba was a musical intrument.

Hey, I work at chemical plants, so does that makes me a chemist?

nevermind
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Goob, it is a matter of demonstrating proficiency in the subject matter, so you tell me. What do you do at the chemical plant?
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
To answer my own question on combining different herbicides: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174407/

"Crofton et al. (2005) presented an in-depth study of a mixture of 18 poly-halogenated hydrocarbons (2 PCDDs, 4 PCDFs, and 12 coplanar and noncoplanar PCBs) to investigate the hypothesis that their joint effect on reducing T4 levels is dose additive. Young female rats were treated for 4 days with individual mixture components, and dose-response relationships with altered T4 levels as the end point were recorded. This information was used to predict the dose-additive response to a mixture of all 18 chemicals. The mixture ratio was chosen to be proportional to the levels of the chemicals reported in breast milk, fish, and other human food sources. The dose-additivity model yielded anticipated effect doses that were higher by a factor of 2-3 than the observed responses. This deviation was statistically significant, and the joint effect of all polyhalogenated pollutants in this model can therefore be classed as synergistic. Nevertheless, the extent of underestimation of observed effects was small."

But then again, maybe it is dozens of other possibilities.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Latch to plate set.......
 

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The two links take you to you some decently priced mag chloride on Ebay. The moose on the Wasatch unit have suffered specifically from copper and selenium deficiencies. Both of which are probably tied to metabolic disruption. Copper deficiencies in moose have very recently been diagnosed as non insulin dependent type II diabetes. This has been observed in other species as well. The selenium deficiencies are probably tied to thyroid dysfunction, and along with the other mineral deficiencies Utah moose have suffered, I would put money on pesticide induced metabolic acidosis as being the root cause. Metabolic acidosis has been shown to create long term mineral deficiencies, long after the acidosis itself has been corrected.

Recipe: You can put up to about 20% by weight mag-chloride into loose salt. But so far the best results I have seen is to mix it with high iron content clay(chelating). So basically some red sticky Utah dirt. Find a spot with dirt like this(the deer, elk, and moose already seek these out) and dump some mag into it. To speed things up you can add some water to wash it into the soil.

If you are going to use salt blocks, look for "Selenium 90" blocks. These contain 90 ppm selenium. It was not too many years ago that you could only get 36ppm selenium in feed salts. About 10 years ago a colleague of mine had to have special blocks made to get 60ppm selenium. But now you can get 90ppm at most feed stores. This is because the rates of weak calf syndrome in cattle has soared over the last several years, simultaneously with a huge expansion of herbicide use to clear brush. A symptom of "weak calf syndrome" is selenium deficiency. WCS is marked by still births, miscarriages, weak calves, bent front limbs, and under bites in calves. Pesticides>>>thyroid disruption(selenium deficiency connection)>>>Sonic hedgehog biogenesis disruption. Selenium supplementation helps this by restoring T4 conversion in the thyroid, there for mitigating some of the problems associated with the pesticide exposure. Or maybe it is just aliens.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-Pounds-M...030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fb807426

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pounds-Ma...980?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c919db97c
Nice thanks! I'll be putting some out the next couple of weeks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Mcfly, Let us know what the results are. If you get some trail camera images, that would be cool as well. Anything weird, submit it for a chance at some gear.
 
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Goob, it is a matter of demonstrating proficiency in the subject matter, so you tell me. What do you do at the chemical plant?
I'm a third-party consultant / chief inspector on new construction and plant turnarounds...oil, gas, paper, power, phosphates, trona, desalinization.

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Let's try a new contest. The first one to prove the other one wrong with published facts from a reliable source gets a free Pesticide album, (the band from Czechoslovakia). The latest album cover has a trail cam picture of a wolf in Utah on it. Cool huh?
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Let's try a new contest. The first one to prove the other one wrong with published facts from a reliable source gets a free Pesticide album, (the band from Czechoslovakia). The latest album cover has a trail cam picture of a wolf in Utah on it. Cool huh?
I'm going to have to pass on the album. I quite literally listen to just about everything, my Ipod will give you multiple personality disorder. "Pesticide" is not music, I do think the name is apropos.

I'll see if I can dig up some "facts from a reliable source".
 
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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I'm a third-party consultant / chief inspector on new construction and plant turnarounds...oil, gas, paper, power, phosphates, trona, desalinization.

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A little back story on mag chloride: I was talking to my father quite some time ago about deer possibly going after magnesium chloride on the road side. He was the one that told me how nasty mag chloride tasted(So yes I had to see for myself). He use to work in chemical plants as well, and holds US Patents in conjunction with Westinghouse on some of their chemical processes. His chemistry back ground is far broader and longer lived than mine, especially applicable chemistry. That being said, he barely grasps most of this stuff. It is some very specific chemistry, especially when it comes to the bio-chemistry. Makes me think some days I should have gone to school instead of running around in the hills. Maybe not days, more like moments....but not seriously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 · (Edited)
"Endosulfan is also a xenoestrogen-a synthetic substance that imitates or enhances the effect of estrogens-and it can act as an endocrine disruptor, causing reproductive and developmental damage in both animals and humans"

Dang you Lonetree! Now I have one more thing to worry about. :)
Endosulfan is being phased out, and is probably not the concern on Kodiak. I really need to update some stuff. The key thing about Kodiak is the cactus bucks at the South West end of the Island that have been declining for about 20 years now. Same time frame as our declines.

Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge does however use Clopyralid which is known to cause cryptorchidism, which causes cactus bucks. It also has been shown to cause delayed formation of the skull, which means it affects the thyroid signalling of SSH gene. Clopyralid came into existence a few years before the cactus bucks started to show up.

The interesting part of this one is that they have been trying to figure out what is causing this for quite some time. I found the answer quite by accident, the people that applied the pesticides documented exactly what is going on. From the
Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge management plan:

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"Elk, goat, marten, red squirrel, muskrat, and beaver do not occur in any areas known to support invasive plants. On the other hand, field observations indicated that deer and hare have used areas that support invasive plants for foraging and, in some cases cover, including sites subjected to active management."

"Active management" in this case means spraying herbicides like Clopyralid.

I think it was Dennis Austin that made the correlation to rabbits and deer here in Utah.

 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
From tonight:


^A funky little 2x3 on a magnesium lick.
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^A mostly symmetrical 3x4 on the same lick. The little one actually pushes this one around.
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This one finally cooperated a little better. He came into this lick twice, with me being fairly close. I put some magnesium in undisturbed dirt about 10 feet from his favorite spot to confirm that it is magnesium he is coming in for.

He is going to have some character. He is a little odd in that he runs with two dry does. You never see him with anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
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