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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is an idea (that's what this forum is for right) it is still in the rough but just thinking out load.

Every one wants to shoot a 400 bull, guy, girl, meet hunter, opportunist, trophy hunter........(true statement).

Here is my question, would you rather have year after year opportunity to hunt general season any bull elk in many different parts of the state (not as many bulls or as high a trophy class bulls)

Or sit out for a number of years to have an easier chance at a very large bull (number of years sitting out is unknown and subject to increase).

I401

1.) DWR make it mandatory to choose from year to year to either hunt the general season any bull or put in for a point on one of the hand full of remaining LE units Key here is you can't do both, you choose between the cake and the pie.

2). (How many LE units and how is this determined?) DWR conduct a survey to all people applying for LE or general season tags to find out what is more important to them, hunting the general season any bull every year or sitting out many years for the chance at a big bull on a LE unit. Based upon the findings and percentages they would divide the states elk hunting into either general season any bull or LE units (I personaly think the chips would fall at about 80/20 opportunity v.s. trophy if hunters had to choose).

3). Spike permits would not be issued on either the general season anybull areas nor on the LE units.

So you choose, opportunity or easy trophy (and remember, trophies do exist on general season areas)

Me personally I'm a hunter, if I can I want to do it every year. It isn't the same just going to take photos or help someone else. I guess I am greedy since I want to have the chance to hunt/kill every year but I would love to see Utah's elk hunting opportunity be more inline with how our deer hunting opportunity is (I can hunt any buck deer every single year).

Again the key here to make this fair is you have to choose in any given hunting season between the two, other wise the draw gets way backed up and the general season is overcrowded.
 

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Again the key here to make this fair is you have to choose in any given hunting season between the two, other wise the draw gets way backed up and the general season is overcrowded.
This is one area we have looked at with I400, I have mixed feelings on it. I do believe if you acquire an elk bull tag you should NOT get a bonus point.

I doubt the split would be 80/20, based on the number of general season hunters in comparison to the number of applicants for LE tags.

FYI, you may want to edit your signature statement, it is "meat" not "meet". _(O)_ :wink:

Good ideas, good to see folks looking for ways to 'tweak' things a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for catching my bad spelling!

Pro I know you don't think the percentage could be as high as 80/20 but I think you would be shocked if people had to choose how many would not put in for a point.

I put in for the LE Boulder every year but if I had to choose this fall wether to put in for the Boulder or go hunt the general muzzleloader any bull I would choose the general season hands down.

I think for both sides to be happy (opportunists and those wanting to hunt trophy units) you have to make it a choice otherwise you will always be fighting the max point increases and over crowding on general seasons.
 

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I had this discussion with a friend the other day. We all from time to time seem to get caught up in the round about instead of stepping in the middle. The point is MORE BULLS CAN AND NEED TO BE TAKEN. We look for ways to try and set up a certain system to
"comply" with the hands that we've been dealt all the while ignoring the circumstances that are right in front of our faces.

In my humble and certainly flawed opinion it seems that instead of killing more bulls we try to limit ourselves to, for example: killing spikes, killing cows, killing management bulls when the end goal should be to balance our herds and habitat by killing more bulls period.

You can leave the system the way it is, increase the LE Tags to the amount reccomended
by biologists, and still move the people through the draws. Instead we tie the pro's ( not you Bart ) hands with these ridiculous stipulations on which elk we can kill when we can kill it and
most importantly who can kill it.

We don't need more regulations we shouldn't have to look at a solunar table or consult with the psychic Chantay to be able to hunt a bull elk.

NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Well said wapati, I401 would do just that, simplify the system dramatically.

You choose,

Put in for a LE point on one of the LE units

or

Hunt that year on the any bull general season (genral season area expanded to include 50-80% of the state.

Let me ask this, How many wish our deer hunting was like our states elk hunting? Meaning, 80% of the state has trophy animals that you can only get a tag for every 10-20 years.

The problem right now is some say "I want to hunt every year" and others say "I want a LE hunt" and both hunters hunt the general season every year and put in for a point. It needs to be a choice, one or the other from year to year.
 

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wileywapati said:
I had this discussion with a friend the other day. We all from time to time seem to get caught up in the round about instead of stepping in the middle. The point is MORE BULLS CAN AND NEED TO BE TAKEN. We look for ways to try and set up a certain system to
"comply" with the hands that we've been dealt all the while ignoring the circumstances that are right in front of our faces.

In my humble and certainly flawed opinion it seems that instead of killing more bulls we try to limit ourselves to, for example: killing spikes, killing cows, killing management bulls when the end goal should be to balance our herds and habitat by killing more bulls period.

You can leave the system the way it is, increase the LE Tags to the amount reccomended
by biologists, and still move the people through the draws. Instead we tie the pro's ( not you Bart ) hands with these ridiculous stipulations on which elk we can kill when we can kill it and
most importantly who can kill it.

We don't need more regulations we shouldn't have to look at a solunar table or consult with the psychic Chantay to be able to hunt a bull elk.

NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!!
Gordy, to clarify you are talking about biologists, right? If you were referring to me, I would expect you to address me as PRO not pro, that way there would be less chance for confusion. :wink: And, who the heck is Chantay? :?
 

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wileywapati said:
NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!! NO NEW REGS!!
I think that something needs to be done.... just what is the big ?

Bottom line, bull to cow ratios are too high on a bunch of units and management tags didn't work out as planned.

Can't we just up the LE tag numbers to thin out the bulls ?????

That makes little to no change in the overall system and it seems as though it would solve a lot of issues. I know it doesn't help primitive hunters quite like other proposals, but it could help the herds.
 

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PRO I didn't get confused. You are PRO the pro's I was talking about were the Biologists.

My point is that the elk committee has passed a plan that would allow for more bulls to be harvested. This plan was developed by pro's and supported by the Elk Committee. Once it hit the RACs is where the idiocy begins.

Keep the LE system as it is just increase the amount of tags.
do away with management hunts and just harvest a few more bulls
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Here is why that doesn't work Harley.

When this is brought up, every it is shut down by two diffrent types of people.

Those who would rather not even hunt at all for many many years just to get one of these covited LE tags and don't want to see that size quality drop even a little (caused by adding more tags).

or

Those who are heavily invested in the Utah trophy elk industry. For many of these people 400+ bulls or the possability of 400+ bulls = $$$$$$$$$$$


If you add more tags the number of 400+ bulls goes down. Plain and simple.
 

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harley said:
So... it has NOTHING to do with game management. It's the almighty $. :roll:
Welcome to Utah.

Gordy, I was clarifying for 'others' not you and I. 8)

Gordy, how do you 'fix' this mess when a member of the WB flat out replied to me, when asked why he gave a directive to the DWR to come up with a statewide spike plan that it would be going 180 degrees from the Elk Management Plan(EMP), that the 'Board' does NOT need to follow the EMP, it is nothing more than a 'guide' not a mandate?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
That is a part of the puzzle, like I said there are hunters who do not make any money in any way off the hunting industry but just don't want the quality to drop in exchange for more tags. Especially before they draw their tag (this is somewhat understandable for max point holders) even thought that quality wasn't there when they started putting in 13 years ago.
 

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PRO that is exactly what I mean. Leave game management
up to the pro's. Unfortunately under the system as it is it will never happen.

It's hard to see all of this work go in to these committee's only to be shot to **** when it hits a higher level.
 

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wileywapati said:
PRO that is exactly what I mean. Leave game management
up to the pro's. Unfortunately under the system as it is it will never happen.

It's hard to see all of this work go in to these committee's only to be shot to **** when it hits a higher level.
Reality is what it is. So, what do we do about it? To me it is clear, fight to make it right!
 

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proutdoors said:
Reality is what it is. So, what do we do about it? To me it is clear, fight to make it right!
No! Not to take you literally because you probably didn't mean it that way, but if it's a fight, invariably the fight becomes the objective in itself and the purpose of the fight is forgotten. That's exactly why it's imperative that we all work together...and that's the first step. The single biggest threat to big game hunting in Utah today is hunters. We have to change that.

We have to wake up the overwhelming majority of hunters who don't even read the proclamation let alone pay attention to how that set of regulations comes about. Otherwise, they'll wake up when it's too late. By and large, hunters remain unaware of the public input mandate of the divisions of the DNR.

But to his credit, Don Peay and a handfull of other guys caught on - I'm guessing it was about the time of Prop 5 or shortly before that. They noticed something else, too - nobody's watching and if anybody is, they aren't paying attention. The Salt Lake Tribune did a story about it years ago entitled "The Don of Utah Wildlife Management" and nobody even blinked. But that was when I woke up and mumbled to myself, "Hey, wait a minute..."

Don't misunderstand - I'm not bagging on Don Peay here. On the contrary, at least he was paying attention and had enough vision to recognize an opportunity. And to his credit along with the other movers and shakers in SFW, they have and continue to do some good things. But that doesn't mean we have to accept their methods because by accident or design, they also drew the attention of something brand new to Utah - the hunting industry. And what did they see? One big untapped market. All that needed to be done was enhance the product and build the infrastructure and that's exactly what they've been doing for at least a decade now. What hunters fail to recognize is that while we're spending more and hunting less, we're replacing our joy in the hunt with the joy of a new bow and while we're singing "Big Bulls; Big Bucks" like it was the McDonald's Big Mac jingle, our options are disappearing. No, you can't hunt that species this year. No, you can't hunt there. No, you can't hunt big bulls. No, you can't hunt big bucks. (Unless you pay first.) Jim Karpowitz has said as much himself.

So if options are important, let's not fight; let's wise up. We need to recruit, involve, include and educate ourselves and our fellow hunters so that we can turn the hunting industry to our favor. After all, we're customers, and there's nothing more powerful in America today than educated (not brainwashed) customers.
 

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We have to wake up the overwhelming majority of hunters who don't even read the proclamation let alone pay attention to how that set of regulations comes about. Otherwise, they'll wake up when it's too late. By and large, hunters remain unaware of the public input mandate of the divisions of the DNR.
How are you going to wake these people up? They just go with the flow and only get involved with hunting when its time for the draw and when its time to hunt.
 

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You are right on one thing finnegan, hunters are our own worst enemies. I do however disagree with what segment of the hunting populous in the biggest culprit. You and Gordy like to marginalize the 'trophy' hunter and come across as having 'purer' hunting desires. That is devisive and a MAJOR part of the problem, not part of the solution. You want the WHOLE state managed to 'your' way of hunting, the desires of MANY hunters be damned. I and EVERY other 'trophy' hunter I know wants trophy hunting AND opportunist hunting. I desire balance based on desires/wishes of ALL hunters, you want to say me being a 'trophy' hunter and a guide of other trophy hunters as the anti-Christ of hunting, I say you are way off.

How is it when you are motivated to get involved it is for 'pure'/honorable motives, but when Don Peay is motivated it is for selfish/monetary reasons? Have you ever bothered to sit down and talk to the man and see what motivates him? I seriously doubt it!

When I say "fight to make it right", I mean we have huge obstacles to overcome to get hunting where you/I believe it should be. To change this will be a FIGHT, a fight to get hunters off their behinds and becoming pro-active, a fight to come to equitible conclusions, a fight to NOT pit hunters against hunters. To make a difference in Utah, one MUST be willing to fight for what one believes in.
 

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Finnegan and Gordy, why weren't you at the WB meeting. How can you say that people need to get involved when you werent even there??? Maybe you should lead by example next time.
 
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