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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know, United divisions is out. Wild Utah Sportmans Association? I cannot remember all the names but would like to get one and start using it. Also we have descided to postpone proposing I400 this year. We are not ready, so another year.

Couple of things we have agreed on.

1-Get rifle hunt out of the rut.

2-Spike hunting closed the first 2-3 years, them MAYBE reintroduce a small # back into the proposed units.

3-Change dates.

I think getting more support and perfecting the plan is a lot better than throwing what we have right now into the system. It just is not perfectted yet. Hunting season kind of messed us up a little and threw us off course enough to postpone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
It would have to be clear that tyhe only spike hunting being closed would be the pilot units. We are still sticking with the same pilot units.

The argument is all the same. Deer and elk. If you want the biggest elk or deer, do what the cuurent plan is doing and shoot yearlings with a small amount of tags for the big ones. I do not think 3 point or better works (deer) because of this same comparison. Target nothing but three point or better and what does that leave you? Two points or less. But if you had a certain % for big ones and yearlings, you target more of the herd, can issue more tags, and maximize opportunity. As of right now Utah grows big elk, they are protected and odds of drawing are unrealistic. The best of all worlds can be achieved here, it is just a matter of time until we find the formula.

As of right now spike hunting on the pilot units needs to be closed anyway you look at it. But there is a place for it and actually is needed on some of the LE areas right now to balance the herd (San Juan). Spike hunting will help with quality, IMO. We will have more time to sort through this and have a fail safe plan by waiting. Right now we are not close enough to attempt this, but will work on it.
 

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Elkhuntingfool said:
#1 and #3 would be easy to get people to buy off on - since the hunters could/should see the benefit. The struggle will be #2 because folks would assume that all spike hunting would be shut down and not just on the units outlined in I400.

I still support the objectives I400 represents.
You would think #1 and #3 would be easy to implement, but I mentioned this on another forum yesterday and have been getting blasted by several people on these very issues. People are scared of change, we need to find a way to approach this as a way to 'enhance' the current plan instead of pushing it as a change to the current plan. The good thing is I have gotten several PM's over there from new 'recruits' to the 'cause'.

PRO
 

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You would think #1 and #3 would be easy to implement, but I mentioned this on another forum yesterday and have been getting blasted by several people on these very issues.
You will always get blasted by some. Heck 1 and 3 are the things I like about I 400.

I think getting more support and perfecting the plan is a lot better than throwing what we have right now into the system. It just is not perfected yet.
Great idea. Gives me more time to convince Pro and yote OTC spike archery tags in the pilot units are not so bad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
They have never thrown the idea completly out. The spike tags need to be elliminated for the first few years. But after that they may be reintroduced to help with quality. But if the plan is implemented, spike tags will be no longer until they are needed in the third or fourth year.
 

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The spike tags need to be eliminated for the first few years
Dont think so. OTC archery spike tags will do little to nothing for quantity or quality. It just goes back to the idea that one spike killed is one less big bull killed. Yet it sure means you can give out a lot more tags. The trade off to me is better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
weatherby25 said:
The spike tags need to be eliminated for the first few years
Dont think so. OTC archery spike tags will do little to nothing for quantity or quality. It just goes back to the idea that one spike killed is one less big bull killed. Yet it sure means you can give out a lot more tags. The trade off to me is better.
It must to supply the bulls for the first years. You cannot burn a candle at both ends.
 

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It must to supply the bulls for the first years.
The bulls are there now. Is that not why I400 is even being talked about. A archery spike hunt is not going to change that. I agree do not burn the candle at both ends, but a archery spike hunt is not even going to create hot wax. Look at the LE archery north cache sucess rate. Now even if that was a spike hunt which might bring the rate up it is not going to hurt any thing for the big bull hunters. There is simply not enough spikes killed with a bow to hurt your quality or quantiy. It does however allow more tags to be issued into very populer hunting units.
 

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I am NOT going to get into this spike nonsense debate again on here. Have fun beating a dead horse.

PRO
 

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marksman said:
I think the real question is Who killed the dead horse?

I think it was the Professor in the library with the candlestick!!!!
wyoming2utah is NOT a professor, he is the premier biologist in the west. *-HELP!-* :wink:

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I was out and about quite a bit on the Wasatch Unit during the LE rifle hunt this year, and once again I've had confirmation about most hunter's needs not being represented. I talked to 3 hunters with tags, and all were after anything with branched antlers. I watched one of them miss 3 shots at a 200-class raghorn, another one told me she was after anything she could get from the road, and the third wanted "any 6x6."

It really underscored to me how the units are being managed for ultimate trophies, and the people drawing tags are just after something older than 3 years. Most of the trophy class bulls die of old age and are wasted.

Are there any stats on the average size of bulls taken with LE tags? My gut tells me it's probably somewhere between 280 and 320.
 

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I am NOT going to get into this spike nonsense debate again on here. Have fun beating a dead horse.
So don't get into it. If the spike issue is a dead horse then so is I400. They go hand in hand. Can not have one with out the other. As long as I400 is being talked about then you still have a spike issue.
 

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weatherby, IF you have any new info/ideas on this issue I agree, but if it is going to be the same stuff that has consumed pages and pages on the forum then it is dead and I400 is still ALIVE! :mrgreen:

PRO
 

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Ok. I have nothing that will ever change your mind. I guess our ideas of what hunters want will always be diffrent. I see hunters wanting to hunt and you see hunters not wanting to hunt as offten to get there big bulls.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Weatherby, it would be too unfair too leave the archery open while the rifle and muzzy closed. I can sacrafice 2-3 years until it is reintroduced in order to have better elk hunting. All of us know that keeping the archery hunt open in full swing for spikes would not do enough damage to worry about it, but would it be fair? 2-3 years for better elk hunting for life, no brainer, I would do it.
 

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What is the difference in between now and 3 years from now? I agree it is unfair. Yet all of I400 could be unfair to some. The 2 places I hunt will now be only a LE hunt. That is not fair to me. There is always something unfair about any type of hunting. Yote says it all the time we can not please every one. With the OTC archery tags it will please just a few more people. You said it yourself
All of us know that keeping the archery hunt open in full swing for spikes would not do enough damage to worry about it
Yet you go and say
2-3 years for better elk hunting for life
It still comes down to not wanting to hurt people's chance at a wall hanger. That is just sad to me. We are so hung up on thropy's that we forget about just hunting for the love of the hunt.
 

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proutdoors said:
marksman said:
I think the real question is Who killed the dead horse?

I think it was the Professor in the library with the candlestick!!!!
wyoming2utah is NOT a professor, he is the premier biologist in the west. *-HELP!-* :wink:
proutdoors said:
What a mature and wise response
That's funny...who is the mature guy now? Talk about a hypocrite.

This I400 stuff is so stupid...I am glad that people can see through the fluff! You will NEVER get it passed; mark my words!

People like hunting with a rifle during the rut, too many people like the spike hunts, and people don't want to change...I400 if NOT dead, is just barely kicking.
 

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HOGAN said:
They have never thrown the idea completly out. The spike tags need to be elliminated for the first few years. But after that they may be reintroduced to help with quality. But if the plan is implemented, spike tags will be no longer until they are needed in the third or fourth year.
If you throw out spike tags for a short time, you will lose them completely...and with them a huge loss in opportunity. I would NEVER agree to this. We should be looking at ways to increase overall opportunity not decrease it!
 
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