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Discussion Starter · #361 ·
Moose, I vaguely recall you said you were done with this thread...oh wait that must have been just another... nevermind. My bad. If you have more important things to do like finding more unposted corners that's fine if you decide to be done with this, no one will think less of you. In FACT, it takes courage to just walk away sometimes.

On another note I found this and I think it's very fitting for this thread.


Cow clown with an apple! Maybe a new avatar? Hmm I'll have to think about it.
 

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If you have more important things to do like finding more unposted corners that's fine if you decide to be done with this, no one will think less of you.
Do you know of any more un posted private property? I’m all ears if so! You can never have too many hunting spots!
 

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Yeah that don't work. Frankly tired of poor ethics and lazy arguments offered by people who don't care to hunt ethically.
Therein lies the crux of this conversation and law! It's about ethics! Nothing more! It's about a larger group of people imposing their selective set of ethics on a smaller group of people. They are not against manipulating the behavior of animals for the purpose of hunting them. They are just against one of the methods the manipulation takes place. In Utah we will still be allowed to manipulate game animal behavior with fake sounds (calls and antler rattling and rubbing), natural or chemically produced odors (doe/cow in heat urine, buck/bull urine, scent gland oils) and fake sights (decoys, rubs and scrapes), but for some nebulous reason we will no longer be allowed to use "bait" as it is now defined. Why? Because it's unethical/"lame".

And, to a great extent, the same logic applies to trail cams. I guess we'll find out to what extent when the Wildlife Board gets around to discussing the issue.
 

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"Therein lies the crux of this conversation and law! It's about ethics! Nothing more!"
Elk, you are incorrect. It has much more to do with other issues and not just ethics. Biological concerns with baiting-
It congregates the animals. Spread of disease. It changes the way the animals use the landscape. It can lead to higher predation. What hormones/supplements are going into that "organic" meat?
Non-biological issue examples- Illegal dumping on public lands. People claiming the area they bait.

I doubt the law was written for you and your 10 apples in a pile. I doubt the law was written to curb salt blocks. Unfortunately you and salt blocks get swept up in the dumping of literal Tons of apples and more-than-mineral-blocks on the landscape because it has to be all or nothing to enforce it. It should be pretty easy to understand.

Why has it been ok to bait mule deer, elk and sheep and not ok to bait turkeys, doves, and ducks? That makes no sense and it seems reasonable they are trying to address it. I didn't read the 19 pages on this thread so maybe this post is redundant.
 

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Therein lies the crux of this conversation and law! It's about ethics! Nothing more! It's about a larger group of people imposing their selective set of ethics on a smaller group of people. They are not against manipulating the behavior of animals for the purpose of hunting them. They are just against one of the methods the manipulation takes place. In Utah we will still be allowed to manipulate game animal behavior with fake sounds (calls and antler rattling and rubbing), natural or chemically produced odors (doe/cow in heat urine, buck/bull urine, scent gland oils) and fake sights (decoys, rubs and scrapes), but for some nebulous reason we will no longer be allowed to use "bait" as it is now defined. Why? Because it's unethical/"lame".

And, to a great extent, the same logic applies to trail cams. I guess we'll find out to what extent when the Wildlife Board gets around to discussing the issue.
this is very true. we all search for an advantage when hunting game. someone else gets to decide what is too great of an advantage. what they base their decision on is where the problem lies. objective facts would be nice but too often it is subjective or driving by those who do not even hunt.

with fishing, this state has determined that dynamite is not a proper method of take. i think we can all agree that it is unfair to the game and unnecessarily wasteful from a common sense standpoint. with elk and deer hunting in the west, many of these newly "unethical" methods of take are just not what people make them out to be. baiting as i knew it in whitetail country was placing piles of apples, corn feeders and other types of feed. that was an unfair advantage because you could set your clock by it. out west, the animals are far less predictable by the time hunting season begins. a simple salt block that was frequented weekly may not be visited again for the season. some tend to think these types of "advantages" are a slam dunk. with that in mind, how much would you see the 10% success rate change by when you allow mineral placements? how much would the success rate go down if you did not allow hunting during the rut, which happens to be a bull's most vulnerable time? it's generally considered to be poor form to shoot an animal tied up but how about fenced in? what about if someone walks you right to the animal and tells you which one to shoot? yeah right, try to ban guiding and see what happens. how many of you surveil an animal and use radios to walk a buddy into that animal? some may not see that as ethical either. just remember it's a slippery slope when you start pointing fingers and allowing others to do the thinking for you.
 

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[QUOTE="Packout, post: 2219582, member: ]
Why has it been ok to bait mule deer, elk and sheep and not ok to bait turkeys, doves, and ducks?
[/QUOTE]
because those species you just mention are far easier to manipulate and alter their feed patterns by baiting than a muledeer or elk is. Now if we were talking pigs and whitetails, it would be a much different story
 

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Discussion Starter · #367 ·
"Therein lies the crux of this conversation and law! It's about ethics! Nothing more!"
Elk, you are incorrect. It has much more to do with other issues and not just ethics. Biological concerns with baiting-
It congregates the animals. Spread of disease. It changes the way the animals use the landscape. It can lead to higher predation. What hormones/supplements are going into that "organic" meat?
Non-biological issue examples- Illegal dumping on public lands. People claiming the area they bait.

I doubt the law was written for you and your 10 apples in a pile. I doubt the law was written to curb salt blocks. Unfortunately you and salt blocks get swept up in the dumping of literal Tons of apples and more-than-mineral-blocks on the landscape because it has to be all or nothing to enforce it. It should be pretty easy to understand.

Why has it been ok to bait mule deer, elk and sheep and not ok to bait turkeys, doves, and ducks? That makes no sense and it seems reasonable they are trying to address it. I didn't read the 19 pages on this thread so maybe this post is redundant.
That's alright, you didn't miss much in the previous pages. This thread is full of redundancy and yet here we are at page 19 and some still don't get it (probably intentionally).

CWD is a nasty disease that everyone should be concerned about and be willing to do what they can to curb it. It's too bad Colorado had to make some drastic decisions lately targeting mature bucks because of it.
 

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"Therein lies the crux of this conversation and law! It's about ethics! Nothing more!"
Elk, you are incorrect. It has much more to do with other issues and not just ethics. Biological concerns with baiting-
It congregates the animals. Spread of disease. It changes the way the animals use the landscape. It can lead to higher predation. What hormones/supplements are going into that "organic" meat?
Non-biological issue examples- Illegal dumping on public lands. People claiming the area they bait.

I doubt the law was written for you and your 10 apples in a pile. I doubt the law was written to curb salt blocks. Unfortunately you and salt blocks get swept up in the dumping of literal Tons of apples and more-than-mineral-blocks on the landscape because it has to be all or nothing to enforce it. It should be pretty easy to understand.

Why has it been ok to bait mule deer, elk and sheep and not ok to bait turkeys, doves, and ducks? That makes no sense and it seems reasonable they are trying to address it. I didn't read the 19 pages on this thread so maybe this post is redundant.
Actually, all of the legal attracting methods I mentioned also do all of the things you mentioned baiting/feeding does. Baiting/feeding is not unique in that regard!

An elk call will draw ANY elk within calling distance, just as elk urine will draw ANY elk within smelling distance and decoys will draw them in if they are in sighting distance. In fact, that's why we use those things. We WANT the animals to change the way they use the landscape and to congregate within our shooting range.

As far as predation goes, Utah predators prefer SOLITARY animals, not groups. The fewer eyes, the better! Most of the ideal situations are does with fawns, fawns who are trying to hide, weak and/or older animals who can't keep up with the herd, bedding areas, etc. Cougars have been hunting deer for thousands of years and they quickly learn where there are likely to be single animals. They also learn where there are a lot of eyes.

As for passing on diseases, they've also done that for thousands of years also. They've licked and smelled genitals, body openings and body wastes, have fed on the same brush, drank from the same dirty water, and rubbed and touched and sneezed and coughed on each other for the same amount of time. They've also lived in large winter herds and in family groups according to the seasons. They don't know the meaning of social distancing! A few hundred or thousand baiting sites in 29+ millions of acres of deer habitat makes little difference. And this is why my proposals limit the number allowed and the location registration.

The dumping issue is an issue only if the "pile" is large and is done for a long period of time. "Bait" is biodegradable and is also used by other animals so it isn't there very long. That's also why my proposals limit the amount and the length of time it's allowed.

And the unknown mineral content could be addressed with one of my other proposals. Regulate the type of bait allowed. There are many feed companies that produce bricks, pellets, and cubes specifically designed for wildlife. They are as interested in the quantity and quality of big game as much as you are.

I've lived in Southern Utah long enough to know that local residents not only claim the area they bait, they claim the whole d+++ mountain and the animals on them. That's an issue with or without the bait (or camera). That's just human nature and isn't likely to change if you ban baiting (or anything else).

Banning baiting for waterfowl and small game is logical because we have DAILY limits for most of those and baiting would be a wipe-out for some species in some areas if allowed. But I have a SEASON limit of big game animals. I can't come back every day during the season and kill a deer.

It doesn't (didn't) have to be an "all or nothing" law biologically, but I guess that doesn't matter, does it?
 

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It's too bad Colorado had to make some drastic decisions lately targeting mature bucks because of it.
Ya since they were the ideal model for hunting muleys in the rut with rifles for how long? They’ve been killing big bucks for years from chit management practices. Don’t bring up the CWD topic to fit your agenda
 

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Therein lies the crux of this conversation and law! It's about ethics! Nothing more! It's about a larger group of people imposing their selective set of ethics on a smaller group of people. They are not against manipulating the behavior of animals for the purpose of hunting them. They are just against one of the methods the manipulation takes place. In Utah we will still be allowed to manipulate game animal behavior with fake sounds (calls and antler rattling and rubbing), natural or chemically produced odors (doe/cow in heat urine, buck/bull urine, scent gland oils) and fake sights (decoys, rubs and scrapes), but for some nebulous reason we will no longer be allowed to use "bait" as it is now defined. Why? Because it's unethical/"lame".

And, to a great extent, the same logic applies to trail cams. I guess we'll find out to what extent when the Wildlife Board gets around to discussing the issue.
The examples you give involve physical presence and participation by the hunter. Bait and trail cams are left to attract or record without presence and participation by human (not worthy of term hunter).
 

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Next time I’ll be unethical when we cross paths. Not illegal. Just unethical. Which apparently really gets under your skin haha ive had the opportunity before, but chose not to. I won’t take that route in the future given the opportunity.
Glad we know each other. Me - Troy Rushton. You?
 

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Discussion Starter · #372 ·
Ya since they were the ideal model for hunting muleys in the rut with rifles for how long? They’ve been killing big bucks for years from chit management practices. Don’t bring up the CWD topic to fit your agenda
Truth hurts at times doesn't it? Maybe you should try spreading it sometime.
 

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The examples you give involve physical presence and participation by the hunter. Bait and trail cams are left to attract or record without presence and participation by human (not worthy of term hunter).
So, it would be OK with you if I brought the bait with me and then took it home when I left. Since I only used about 2 dozen scattered apples and/or a brick of salt or half a block of compressed feed designed for wildlife, it would be a simple solution. (I never used my one and only trail cam for deer or elk and I never used bait for pronghorn.)

Oh, and congratulations! You've learned a great lesson from Tristate! Always leave your post with an attempted insult! "You're not a hunter" is one of his favorites.
 

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I'm just worried that this whole thing is going to become a big "witch hunt" for many uneducated fools that want to take the law into their own hands and there are going to be a lot more cameras being stolen or damaged than ever before. Even if they are placed somewhere legally.
 

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I'm just worried that this whole thing is going to become a big "witch hunt" for many uneducated fools that want to take the law into their own hands and there are going to be a lot more cameras being stolen or damaged than ever before. Even if they are placed somewhere legally.
I bet you see fighting and vandalism on the hill like never before. Guys will just assume the original bill banning trail cams pass and they’ll take it from there. People already thought baiting was illegal prior to this year which caused some conflicts. This just poured gas on the fire
 

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I'm just going to put this out there. If you're big game hunting in a way that puts you in such regular personal contact with others on the mountain that you can have multiple conflicts or fights, then you're doing it wrong.
 

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I think we can all learn something from this thread: 1 bad apple can spoil the bunch.
People already thought baiting was illegal prior to this year which caused some conflicts.
Those conflicts came about because it wasn't illegal.
Now that it IS illegal - why would there be more conflicts? There should be less - because it shouldn't be happening now, and if it is happening, it is illegal!


moose -- I want to feel bad for you, but your logic on these topics is so skewed that I just cannot feel any empathy at all for you. Sorry.
 
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