[bigbr]

I have been trying to fallow all of the purposed changes and reasoning behind such changes on this board now for about four years. With all the I400 and I401 and so forth, I find my self wondering how we keep kids and families involved in hunting period.. It gets tiring and frustrating each year, when I find that I have to retain the services of an attorney just to make sure that my application to hunt is filled out correctly and I have not violated some code or law in the process. It also frustrates me to the point of wanting to sign up for Green Peace, when I am required to take out a second mortgage to be able to afford the application fees and tag costs.

Some of the so called Moses’s for wildlife on here have forgotten that hunting for most of us is recreational and not a lifetime career or ambition. I, for one, do not believe that a game manager or a board member should be required to have a degree in accounting in order to make prudent and effective wildlife policies. Nor do I believe that we should account for every elk that is in Utah on a yearly basis and then try and farm for maximum yield. My heart does not do somersaults when I think that older mature bucks and bulls are dying of old age out on the hill every year and that somehow we have failed because their heads do not adorn the walls of a great white Nimrod. There is just something more to me when I think about being wild and being free. It takes on an element of chance, survival and grace to obtain trophy status without food plots and high fence farming. Hunting should be viewed as a game of chance, skill and endurance and not as a game of statistical odds... Do not cheapen my sport with farming! And do not chase my children away because they can not afford the tags or understand the rules. My hunting ambitions were handed down from father to son and daughter. Try to keep this in mind when you quibble about how unfair hunting is as you plow through your hunting magazines and sportsmen shows.

Try for once to keep things simple....

 

[Finnegan]

A good point and well said, bigbr.

 

[sagebrush]

I feel the same way, changing things all time for the benefit of the rich or hard core trophy hunter in not in favor of the public. wait tell year (2009-2010) when prices go up for the limit entry units. (my prediction)

As long as infaltaion keeps rising so does everything else.

 

[elk22hunter]

I'm sorry but I "Simply" disagree. (except for the high fence)

Things change and the fact that we have any trophy animals is not by chance. You cannot bury your head in the sand and expect things to remain the same. I understand your love and passion is to keep it simple but to put it simple, we don't live on the Pondarosa and those days are gone. We need to be very involved with the whole process to more of a degree than we ever have and it's only going to get worse. Our children will have to "simply" hit the hunting at a different angle from us as we now have to from our parents generation. They are a smart group of kids that we are raising. They will figure it out and be fine.

 

[ClintW]

With the increases of the $10 per draw, and the required small game licence.
I was reading a artical about it in the Eastman's hunting magazine that said the state will increased its income (Utah div. wildlife) from apps,tags and licence fee's with out giving more tags for the draw of around 3 to 4 million$$. If this is true where is this going and what will it be used for.

Maybe I'll get to see a DWR officer on the hill for the first time in years or will the $$'s be parked up at the state capital?

Keep it simple?? Less hunters and more $,$$$,$$$ to make up for the decline of hunters?

I know other states are higher priced for nonresidences but have more avalible tags to draw, but they seem to be hitting the nonresidences harder and the residence tags are quite cheap.

We limit the out of state tags to almost impossible for a out of state person to pull.

Maybe we should shift afew more tags to the out-of state hunters(most cases are 1 or 2 tags now) to give them a chance and bring more $'s to our system like other states.

 

[coyoteslayer]

I400 is pretty simple, but some people use their arrogrants to make it look complicated because they hate the idea. Bigbr things need to be simple, but they also need to accomplish the task.

The Utah Big Game Proclamation is 10 times easier to read than most other states.

 

[wyoming2utah]

I have noticed that the Board and many RAC members as well as some of the higher-ups in the DWR feel exactly the same way you do bigbr!

Well thought out post...some very good and valid points!

 

[Riverrat77]

Well thought out post...some very good and valid points!

+1.... keep it simple. True, management will always have its place but micromanaging can pretty easily be overdone. I'd also like it to be simpler.... or just left alone. If a unit is out of whack.... fix it. If its not, why keep messing with it? Granted, I've got exactly one big game season under my belt but I would agree that while some are tinkerers looking to fine tune nature, most of the hunting public would rather just have well enough left alone.

 

[10000ft.]

Increase general season opportunity by decreasing LE trophy game reserves.

You know there are diffrences between LE units and high fence hunts but also a lot of similarities,

1) LE units have often Natural habitat that encloses an area the game choose to stay on or natural borders that seperate if from other habitat.

2) Limited numbers are allowed on to these areas to hunt to ensure that the most animals possible reach trophy size.

3) The animals become less weary of people where they are persued less.

These units are fun to the few that get the chance but not worth giving up our opportunity to hunt in these areas for many years, once in a liftime or if trends continue for most of us, never.

 

[proutdoors]

most of the hunting public would rather just have well enough left alone.

Where do you get this info from? I hear from more NOT happy with it as is, than from those "who would rather have well enough left alone".

 

[elk22hunter]

Increase general season opportunity by decreasing LE trophy game reserves.

You know there are diffrences between LE units and high fence hunts but also a lot of similarities,

1) LE units have often Natural habitat that encloses an area the game choose to stay on or natural borders that seperate if from other habitat.

2) Limited numbers are allowed on to these areas to hunt to ensure that the most animals possible reach trophy size.

3) The animals become less weary of people where they are persued less.

These units are fun to the few that get the chance but not worth giving up our opportunity to hunt in these areas for many years, once in a liftime or if trends continue for most of us, never.

I'm not one who likes to argue but if I could spell ludicrous then that is the word that I'd use right now.

To compare LE to high fence is insane. I would so much rather hunt a few hunts in my lifetime that are TOP quality hunts than crap shoots every year. Our bow hunting in Utah is awesome and a guy should be able to get his fill of "opportunity" every year on good animals. I for one am against all who will try to take us back to the "good old days" when they haven't lived through them because trust me, the good old days are NOW!

 

[10000ft.]

To compare LE to high fence is insane. I would so much rather hunt a few hunts in my lifetime that are TOP quality hunts than crap shoots every year. Our bow hunting in Utah is awesome and a guy should be able to get his fill of "opportunity" every year on good animals. I for one am against all who will try to take us back to the "good old days" when they haven't lived through them because trust me, the good old days are NOW!

Elk22 when you say "crap shoots" are you refering to Utah general season as a whole or what? I love hunting the northern region general season for both elk and deer, absolutley love it. I would not call it a crap shoot not even on the rifle hunt (at least not where I hunt on public ground).

You are right, general season bow hunting in Utah has some real awesome opportunity. Especially for those like you, your buddy epek and other real trophy hunters who can aquire general season tags for elk and deer and wether during the season or on the extended find the trophies that exist in these areas. All I'm proposing is that we expand particularly for elk, the general season anybull areas. Because yes, "a guy should be able to get his fill of "opportunity" every year on good animals".

My whole point in drawing comparisons to high fence and LE was just to draw attention to the loss off opportunity that happens when you take a general season area where trophy hunters can hike around in the high country and find the trophy animals, away from the crowds. When you make it a LE unit he has to wait 10-15 years to be able to do what he was doing before. Loss of opportunity.

 

[elk22hunter]

I'm really not arguing any of the points that you have made. I think that your right in the fact that Northern has some great deer and elk but I do feel that you have a much better chance on private ground than the public. I know there is some great public but you had better plan on getting way back in there. That fits with a lot of people but for some reason, I am one who plans a few days for out of state hunts and then like to hit the evenings and weekends for Utah's deer.

The biggest thing that I like about hunting deer on a LE or elk is that you hunt them like hunters do. You get to spot them, glass them for a while, walk away and glass some others and even do that for days while making a decision. You know their patterns and know where they will most likely be in the morning and evening. You don't jump them out of their bedding area unless you are actually hunting that particular animal.

That is putting my skills against his. Wind, sound, sight etc...

The other way on most of the general shoot anything, (what I am calling the crap shoots,) is sit on a rock and see what moves from what pressure from other hunters might give. When that doesn't work, make some drives and take shots at spikes and two points running frantically for cover over the next ridge. It's always a race to get the first shot off as soon as an animal appears or he'll be dead by someone else.

Don't get me wrong, I love fly fishing but can have fun catching them on velveta cheese. Not as much fun with the skill and thinking level at a much lower level. The same holds true with the hunts. I like the chess match of hunting more than the crap shoot.

I do realize however that there are many hunters out there and they are at various stages of a hunters life. I am not putting down the thoughts of others as much as am trying to show why I feel the way that I do. I love hunting as do others and do not want to be thought of as a snobby guy who looks down on others. I am not that way. I am not necesarily wanting the entire state to be LE but I don't mind waiting for the ones that we have. The wait will be worth it.

Sorry about the insane word. That was probably a bit strong now that I look back.

 

[woollybugger]

AMEN!!! (to the original post, that is).

*(())*

 

[Riverrat77]

most of the hunting public would rather just have well enough left alone.

Where do you get this info from? I hear from more NOT happy with it as is, than from those "who would rather have well enough left alone".

No facts and figures... just from talking to folks. Most of the guys I talk to about hunting, NEVER bring up that they want to change anything... just how happy they were that they have their tags, that they saw a nice buck or saw some elk, etc, etc. Of course the ones that are the most vocal about things are going to be the ones wanting change... that would seem to be common sense to me. Guys who are fine with the way things are and appreciate the opportunities presented in the here and now aren't going to have much to say I'd guess. Just my thought on it.

 

[STEVO]

most of the hunting public would rather just have well enough left alone.

Where do you get this info from? I hear from more NOT happy with it as is, than from those "who would rather have well enough left alone".

No facts and figures... just from talking to folks. Most of the guys I talk to about hunting, NEVER bring up that they want to change anything... just how happy they were that they have their tags, that they saw a nice buck or saw some elk, etc, etc. Of course the ones that are the most vocal about things are going to be the ones wanting change... that would seem to be common sense to me. Guys who are fine with the way things are and appreciate the opportunities presented in the here and now aren't going to have much to say I'd guess. Just my thought on it.

I agree with you, the few Rac meetings I have been to have been full of outfitters or guides, and people just trying to get their RAC meeting under their belt for dedicated. The people most vocal about it are the ones that have something to lose(money) The other "regular hunters" there just kept their mouths shut. Guides would rather see more limited entry tags(since thats where they make their money) & the normal guy would like to see more limited entry tags, But is content with the way things are because by having general season tags means they get to hunt every year.

 

[bowhunter3]

I just like to hunt. I bow hunt the general archery season every year for elk and deer. Love it, would I love to get a trophy yes, but I don't have the money to mount the darn thing anyways so I am happy with 3 points and small 4 points bucks or a smaller bull just love getting out there in the mountains and being up there with all of those animals. All I ask for from people is if they are going to make a change it better be for the masses and not a select few. Also think about the kids, and there hunting feature.

 

[proutdoors]

I just like to hunt. I bow hunt the general archery season every year for elk and deer. Love it, would I love to get a trophy yes, but I don't have the money to mount the darn thing anyways so I am happy with 3 points and small 4 points bucks or a smaller bull just love getting out there in the mountains and being up there with all of those animals. All I ask for from people is if they are going to make a change it better be for the masses and not a select few. Also think about the kids, and there hunting feature.

Funny thing,, I have had my motives called into question a lot lately. I also see where bowhunter3 says we should think about the kids. The MAIN motive I have is my kids, I have four with the oldest being 15 and the youngest 3. I am more concerned about their hunting in the future than I am of anything to do with my hunting.

STEVO wrote:

I agree with you, the few Rac meetings I have been to have been full of outfitters or guides, and people just trying to get their RAC meeting under their belt for dedicated. The people most vocal about it are the ones that have something to lose(money) The other "regular hunters" there just kept their mouths shut. Guides would rather see more limited entry tags(since thats where they make their money) & the normal guy would like to see more limited entry tags, But is content with the way things are because by having general season tags means they get to hunt every year.

You are making no sense, if guides are the only ones showing up to the RAC's besides DH's, and they are wanting MORE LE tags issued, why aren't more tags issued? I dispute that the bulk of those who show up are guides/outfitters, I go to several each year, and RARELY do I see guides/outfitters in attendance. I go as a UBA rep, not as a guide. I have NEVER heard a guide/outfitter get up and be vocal about losing/gaining money, I can't recall ever having a guide/outfitter get up and vioce his opinion at all. The "regular hunters" who SHOW UP voice their views, it is the "regular hunters" who STAY HOME that are not voicing their views.

What I don't get is why a FEW here believe their way/style of hunting is the only one that matters and all other types/preferred hunting styles are dismissed. Can someone explain to me why we can't have BOTH/ALL types of hunting interests addressed? Why should we manage to one group and neglect/ignore the others? Why not seek balance?

 

[bowhunter3]

Funny thing,, I have had my motives called into question a lot lately. I also see where bowhunter3 says we should think about the kids. The MAIN motive I have is my kids, I have four with the oldest being 15 and the youngest 3. I am more concerned about their hunting in the future than I am of anything to do with my hunting.

Pro I have never thought anything about your motives. Doesn't matter to me. I think what you are saying is you agree with me. All I want is for you real dedicated people who voice your concern over the system is to have all of us in mind and our kids. If you do that you are alright with me. I think you guys going to the meetings and fighting for us hunters are great, just keep us general hunters in your thoughts. I think you are. I live out here in vernal can't go to any meetings out there in the city, have gone to the ones here when they are out here.

 

[proutdoors]

Pro I have never thought anything about your motives. Doesn't matter to me. I think what you are saying is you agree with me. All I want is for you real dedicated people who voice your concern over the system is to have all of us in mind and our kids. If you do that you are alright with me. I think you guys going to the meetings and fighting for us hunters are great, just keep us general hunters in your thoughts. I think you are. I live out here in vernal can't go to any meetings out there in the city, have gone to the ones here when they are out here.

Sorry if it came across as if I was implying you questioned my motives, I was referring to what others have said on this. I try my best to take the "general hunters" wishes desires whenever I propose/oppose something. Problem is the "general hunter" has so many wishes/desires that conflict with each other. I would love to see a day when we worry about 'real' issues instead of pitting "general hunters" vs "trophy hunters" vs "DIY hunters" vs "guided hunters".

I heard the Northeastern RAC has the biggest turnout last month of all the RAC's. Good job!