[OldMick]

So we had our most recent day chasing elk destroyed by a pack of happy dogs, 2nd week in a row. First off, know that I want the bear guys to be able to do their thing, but we had 2 promising days destroyed. My son has a LE wasatch elk tag, with school and work our days are limited. We did a ton of scouting and all the bears on our cameras should have been a warning sign that we were about to get screwed.

Again, I'm all for their pursuit. But why does my son have to pay for it? He had talking bulls on both sides of him, everything looked great. Was it a sure thing? The only sure thing is that we will never know. The dogs ran right up the same canyon, bayed for 45 minutes and left. We didn't see anything for 24 hours in a spot that we saw elk in every morning and night on every glassing trip.

I'm not as bitter as I sound, well not quite. It's my son's big tag, and we have no clue what to do with the few weekends we have left because despite our best efforts, the dogs are in control of our fate. But the DNR knows this is the case, right? They know it will take success rates down, right? Its sabotage right? Too strong? maybe. But with success rates down, more tags can be issued, we know there are still plenty of hunters that will pay the money for a Wasatch tag even though its not what it used to be, and they just need to put up with a few whiny bow hunters.

So there's my rant. I would actually love a response if anyone knows why this is how these hunts are laid out. Bear hunt goes until Nov right? And it has to over lap with archery? The dogs have to be used during archery? I'm sure they will cross a few muzzy and rifle guys too, but its tough trying to get in archery range when the dogs clear an entire range.

I'm sure this is all in vane, thought I would feel better. Still feeling screwed.

Seriously though, any real responses would be appreciated.

 

[CAExpat]

I can certainly sympathize with your feelings. Following along to see any other comments, however I would forward your sentiments straight to DNR for a good alternative option. I've been hesitant to cash in on a LE Archery hunt for many of the same reasons; that and the Patagonia dog handlers.

 

[PBH]

OldMick -- you are not alone.

We had two different groups of bear hunters move in on us this weekend.

We had 5 bulls bedded, with Richard down in there with them -- and then the hills came live with the sound of hounds. We actually watched the sow and cub running through the oak, with the pack of dogs on their heels. They chased the bears right on top of the hill, up from Richard, and treed the sow. We couldn't see the cub any longer.

After an about an hour of listening to the dogs bark at the treed sow the hunters finally showed up. After a bit of pointing, hollering, and whatever else they were doing, they leashed the dogs and backed out. It was very surprising how quickly the bear came out of the tree, and moved off into the brush.

needless to say, the 5 bulls left the country. I think they're now on the Henries.

I agree with OldMick -- I get it. The bear guys have as much right to do their thing as we do. But, they certainly have much more affect on us than what we have on them.

Why do the La Sal's and the San Juan have a moratorium on dogs during the LE Archery Elk hunt (specifically to decrease hunter conflicts!), but not the rest of these units?

 

[goofy elk]

The moratorium was done decause SL and Lasal was/is the go to spot for hounddogers ans bears.

Busyest spot in the state.

And just think, this weekend the upland game hunters hit the hills state wide.
Something else for the archery guys to bitch about........LOL

 

[wyoming2utah]

The thing that stinks is that the hounds men have multiple seasons to fill their tag. I really think there should be a moratorium during LE archery hunts to avoid conflicts.

 

[PBH]

The moratorium was done decause SL and Lasal was/is the go to spot for hounddogers ans bears.

Busyest spot in the state.

Now it's Boulder. You can't eliminate 1 area and expect the pressure to go away. That pressure simply moves to another place. So all those guys that can't run dogs on La Sal and San Juan get concentrated on Boulder.

 

[Airborne]

Well that sucks--sorry your days hunt got buggered up.

Before ya get hating on houndsmen too much, can I list a few of the things that have ruined hunts for me in the past (NO Bull Crap List, all these have messed up hunts for me):

Fellow Bowhunters (by far the biggest)
Sheep
Sheep herders
Sheep herder's dogs
Cattle
Cowboys
Cowboy's dogs
Wild Horses
Domestic horses
ATV's
Hikers
Boyscouts
LE tag Scouters
Low flying aricraft
Forest fires
Coyotes
Bear
Mountain Lion (picks to prove it!)
Confused/Misinformed landowner
Upland game hunters
Public land gates that should have been opened
That one herd cow elk who is the smartest critter on the mountain!

The list goes on and on and I could bitch up a storm about each and every one of these and demand that they shouldn't be out there when I am because...Privilege! and my hunt matters more than yours.

Remember that after you run off the houndsmen for disturbing your hunt--maybe the next Privileged soul will petition to run you off because you are causing them grief!

A lot of greenie hikers out their hating on hunters--beware eating your own

 

[PBH]

come on Airborne -- we're not hating on them [houndsmen]. Just venting frustrations.

We talked with both groups of houndsmen, and both were pretty nice. We basically just wanted to know where they were going to be, and let them know where we were going to be. It didn't change either of our plans - but we all understand where we'd all be.

My frustration isn't with the houndsmen. My frustration is with the lack of consistency with the DWR. Why do 2 units have a moratorium while the other units do not? That's the issue. Why do you exempt 2 units, but not the others? What is the difference? Why do the LE archery hunters on San Juan / La Sal get a precedence that the Boulder does not?

FWIW -- we also dealt with:
A. Other hunters
B. Guides "scouting"
C. ATVs

The cowboy moving cows around every single day? He's awesome. I wish more cattle companies would follow suit, and keep their herds moving.

 

[wyoming2utah]

Why do 2 units have a moratorium while the other units do not? That's the issue. Why do you exempt 2 units, but not the others? What is the difference? Why do the LE archery hunters on San Juan / La Sal get a precedence that the Boulder does not?

You are already alluded to the big problem...by exempting those 2 units, you displace the hunters that would normally hunt them and then force them on to new units and increase the pressure on those new units. And, by doing so, you create another potential problem with hunters and conflict.

The truth is that I don't mind sharing the mountain with bear hunters. It was the **** dogs that drove me nuts. When I go up in the mountain, the last thing I want to hear all night and day are hounds barking at whatever the hell they bark at non stop. Talk about annoying.

On that note, doesn't the proclamation or Utah law say something about it being legal to shoot dogs that are chasing and harassing wildlife? After Friday night, I was ready to go hound hunting.

 

[Airborne]

come on Airborne -- we're not hating on them [houndsmen]. Just venting frustrations.

My frustration isn't with the houndsmen. My frustration is with the lack of consistency with the DWR. Why do 2 units have a moratorium while the other units do not? That's the issue. Why do you exempt 2 units, but not the others? What is the difference? Why do the LE archery hunters on San Juan / La Sal get a precedence that the Boulder does not?

I get the frustration and need to vent--I really do--hell, I do it often! The point of my post being that there is a lot of stuff to mess up a hunt and to head off a little of the LE privilege mentality that Utahn's love to sport.

I think goofy elk answered your question though--San Juan and La Sals have always been THE spot for bear guys. The closures were put in place to spread out houndsmen. Other units do not have near the houndsman and there is plenty of room to roam. The OP had an issue on the wasatch--huge unit and probably time for him to head to a different canyon if the houndsmen seem to be concentrated in the area he was hunting. San Juan and La Sal may not have had alternative areas to go with the concentration of houndsman--maybe I'm wrong--it's happened before!

 

[wyoming2utah]

The LE privilege mentality that you mention is real and I have often vented against it as well...especially with those who complain about spike elk hunters messing up LE elk hunters.

I don't understand why we need to have another bear season during the archery elk hunt...why do the bear hunters need a spring hunt, a late summer hunt, and a late fall hunt.

 

[Airborne]

The LE privilege mentality that you mention is real and I have often vented against it as well...especially with those who complain about spike elk hunters messing up LE elk hunters.

I don't understand why we need to have another bear season during the archery elk hunt...why do the bear hunters need a spring hunt, a late summer hunt, and a late fall hunt.

All valid points--I am not a houndsmen, maybe one could answer

What I do know is that changing precedent is often difficult and I'm sure there was a reason for it--maybe?

 

[PBH]

The OP had an issue on the wasatch--huge unit and probably time for him to head to a different canyon if the houndsmen seem to be concentrated in the area he was hunting.

Maybe.

but maybe the houndsmen could also head to a different area if the elk hunters seem to be concentrated in the area they want to hunt?

It works both ways. Too often neither side wants to bend.

Where we are on the Boulder, the bears and the bulls (elk) are in the same place. It is a recipe for conflict.

 

[OldMick]

Privileged

Airborne - Seriously? Cute list. So sorry to hear you are so persecuted. NONE of those things have ever happened to me, that list is just for you. Oh wait, I didn't mention the beer party at the trailhead with the blasting music until 2:00am the weekend of the opener. Oh and the motorcycles, they were having a blast on their day off but of course I told them my hunt was the most important thing going on and to cut the rpm's down a little. wow. Why didn't I mention them? Because they aren't directly under the supervision and regulation of the DWR.

On your little list that we would all agree are the basic risks of any day in the hills, how many are regulated by the DWR? How many are scheduled directly on top of another event that will be directly impacted. Again, my original point for discussion, before your rude interruption and pointless tangents, does it have to be this way? Is this the best option for everyone? Did you even read the post? I don't want the houndsmen or anyone else off the hill. I want to know if we have to be there at the same time? I really asked for educated responses, thanks for trying.

And as for privilege. Let's just say hypothetically that a group is able to enter the hills, take over the mountain and completely alter everyone else's experience there. You even said I just need to move. Oh my Hell! Did you hear yourself? Who if running who off the mountain? Who is truly privileged here?

But I know, you know me, right? Privledged LE hunter that has the mountain reserved and bought all his designer camo with the matching belt and wallet at the last expo, right. Not even close. The big issue for me and my over hyped frustrations is probably because its not my tag, but my kids. He put 6 months of wages into a bow that I will probably never be able to afford. We have put months and miles into this hunt and you are telling my tough luck, get over myself. Amazing.

I ran into a houndsman on the opener, he was also there with his kids trying to do the same thing I was, just put a little real adventure in their lives. Nice guy, he had a great day, and I knew it wasn't the place to have this discussion so we wished each other luck. So I will do the same for you, good luck in your quest not to have an actual discussion but to set everyone else straight.

 

[7mm Reloaded]

You must have a plan ABCDEF and G. Because there are so many people now days everywhere you go doing different things. I hear the hounds on the mountain every year for like he first day or so then they go home. There's lots of bears and cats where we hunt so I tell myself " the good side" I'm glad they chased them away from the camps for they don't craw in bed with me or my kids. I can't hear the dogs at night anyways over all the coyotes and bugling . We know what canyons they run them in so we use that to our advantage and hunt the canyons they push everything to. Takes time to learn these things. Hope you figure it out and have some success.

 

[Airborne]

Airborne - Seriously? Cute list. Thanks! I thought it was fun and it brought up a lot of fond memories of hunts getting messed up, especially when the mountain lion killed a buck in front of me! So sorry to hear you are so persecuted. I'm not but thanks? NONE of those things have ever happened to me, that list is just for you.you need to get out more then! Oh wait, I didn't mention the beer party at the trailhead with the blasting music until 2:00am the weekend of the opener. beer parties! Awesome! nothing better than hunting hung over! am I right?! Oh and the motorcycles, they were having a blast on their day off but of course I told them my hunt was the most important thing going on and to cut the rpm's down a little. I'm glad the motorcycle guys toned it down for you wow. Why didn't I mention them? I don't know but I bet you will tell meBecause they aren't directly under the supervision and regulation of the DWR. A lot of stuff on my list is regulated at least in part by the DWR--like the coyotes, there is a bounty on them and their not supposed to mess with my hunt so much that the DWR wants them killed!

On your little list that we would all agree are the basic risks of any day in the hills, how many are regulated by the DWR? a lot actually like other hunters and animals and stuff How many are scheduled directly on top of another event that will be directly impacted.The other bowhunters and upland hunters are Again, my original point for discussion, before your rude interruption and pointless tangents, does it have to be this way? I didn't think I was rude--just pointing out that lot's of stuff can mess up a hunt Is this the best option for everyone? it sounds pretty rad if you are a houndsmen who like to have beer parties and ride motorcycles!Did you even read the post?yes sir, I did, sorry you don't like what I had to offer I don't want the houndsmen or anyone else off the hill.yeah, but ya kinda do I want to know if we have to be there at the same time? Well the current law says ya do I really asked for educated responses, thanks for trying.I appreciate that! I like to try my best and I have a couple degrees, so thanks ;-)

And as for privilege. Let's just say hypothetically that a group is able to enter the hills, take over the mountain and completely alter everyone else's experience there.like LE bowhunters? You even said I just need to move. well, it is always easier to change one's self than to ask for others to change Oh my Hell! Did you hear yourself? Yeah I did--I'm Loco! Who if running who off the mountain? Nobody is running you off the mountain--ya just may not see any elkWho is truly privileged here?We are are equal under the law or something like that

But I know, you know me, right? nope but now I want to party with ya! got any beer?!Privledged LE hunter that has the mountain reserved and bought all his designer camo with the matching belt and wallet at the last expo, right. I'm sorry that you have a poor choice in clothing?! Not even close. ok The big issue for me and my over hyped frustrations is probably because its not my tag, but my kids. kids are awesome! I like mine too!He put 6 months of wages into a bow that I will probably never be able to afford. That's good--teaches work ethic and disappointment, both essential tools as an adult We have put months and miles into this hunt and you are telling my tough luck, get over myself.naaahh, I just think you should probably move to another canyon with elk in it--that's what I would do Amazing.I know right! Those elk probably went to the next canyon over

I ran into a houndsman on the opener, cool, houndsmen are weird but generally nicehe was also there with his kids trying to do the same thing I was, just put a little real adventure in their lives.I like adventure! keeps things fresh Nice guy, he had a great day, I bet because he wasn't hunting elkand I knew it wasn't the place to have this discussion so we wished each other luck.that's nice of you! So I will do the same for you,I appreciate that--very kind of you! good luck in your quest not to have an actual discussion but to set everyone else straight.

Well thanks! I hope that you can find some elk as well! If you need any help send me a PM, I have hunted the Wasatch a fair amount and I could probably point you towards some elk areas since yours are full of dogs!

 

[goofy elk]

Oh Airborn...LOL!
So true, Spot on.

By the way,
Im camped right now back in the ol antelope grounds where I met you
some 15 years ago......
Not as many antelope these day but still fun.......

No hounddogers on this side of Boulder..
In fact, very few people at all.
Pretty nice!

 

[Airborne]

By the way,
Im camped right now back in the ol antelope grounds where I met you
some 15 years ago......
Not as many antelope these day but still fun.......

No hounddogers on this side of Boulder..
In fact, very few people at all.
Pretty nice!

Cool! I hope you get one! I was down there a few weeks ago helping DWR biologists count sage grouse--good time! I saw a few goats when I was there, definitely not like the good ole days with the goats, unreal back in the mid/early 2000's. Good luck down there, beautiful place and not many houndsmen running around!

 

[wyoming2utah]

No hounddogers on this side of Boulder..
In fact, very few people at all.
Pretty nice!

But, I am sure you wouldn't mind the hounddoggers out chasing lopes now either, would you?

Again, why do the hounddoggers need to be out during the archery elk hunts?

 

[goofy elk]

No hounddogers on this side of Boulder..
In fact, very few people at all.
Pretty nice!

But, I am sure you wouldn't mind the hounddoggers out chasing lopes now either, would you?

Again, why do the hounddoggers need to be out during the archery elk hunts?

Ha
I'm an old retired hounddoger..
Hunting LE antelope, GS deer.
Dose that count?

Heck,
I was running hound dogs on Boulder when most of the guys on this forum where wearing dipers...