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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The purchase of bonus points when at the top of the pool intrigues me. What is going on here? How many of these top point holders are non-hunters? How many would be found on the SS death index? When you can draw any premium tag you want, why would you continue to purchase bonus points except to build a cache to average out with your own at a later date? Are there really 7 individuals that put off hunting any hunt they wanted two years in a row (2014 and 2015) for whatever personal reasons?
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There is also something odd going on in NR bonus point purchases starting 7 years ago.
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I suspect abuse of the bonus point purchase is larger than I previously had suspected. With the ability to turn a tag back in if health, or other extenuating circumstances prevent one from hunting, is there really any reason to continue allow bonus point purchases? Were it me, I might want to put rules in place against buying bonus points year after year after year without actually putting in for any hunt. I don't like the potential for gaming the system.

Makes me consider a GRAMA request regarding application data and how many top point entries are part of a group, as opposed to other point pools. And if there is a disproportionate number of group applicants, how many points does the co-applicant(s) have? What are the harvest rates of these top point applicants as compared to the unit average?
 

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Two of those top LE Elk point holders live within 3 houses of me. Both are wives of big hunters, they have hunted themselves in the past but not passionate about it. Both have told me their long term plans for the points, but its not my place post their info, nor do I completely agree with those plans... but its their points they can do with as they want.

As for that NR point thing, that's a permit service group that manages putting in hunters for tags... you pay them basically to put your app in for you each year.


-DallanC
 

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I really don't see any problems with purchasing points and banking them and then using them as the system allows no matter how much I don't agree with it.

I myself banked points in Colorado for 16 years for deer and 17 years for elk and cashed them in at a time that guaranteed me a tag when I put in for the draw so that I could make plans a year ahead of time.

As for the non residents putting in for the Utah draws and buying points, the system allows it and you can purchase a point for every spices that is in the draw if you are a non resident or as long as your money holds out. You also have to look at the odds of the draws for non residents. Drawing a lot of the tags is just a pipe dream way way down the tunnel of the draws with lousy odds of drawing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Interesting on the NR info. The beginning of this service 7 or 8 years ago is even more readily evident in Pronghorn bonus point purchases.

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I really don't see any problems with purchasing points and banking them and then using them as the system allows no matter how much I don't agree with it.
The part of it that gives me pause is that my understanding of the point and waiting period (which perhaps is flawed) is to 'share' the limited resource of high-quality elk hunts. The guy who hunted an LE hunt 6 years ago, can now 'cut in line' by applying in a group with his non-hunting brother and sister-in-law, and hunt a good LE unit again after only 6 years, while the person waiting their turn in the system may still have 10 to 15 years to wait (or more). It does not provide for a level playing field, aside from giving everyone the same opportunity to game the system. I have a hard time swallowing that this is the way the system was designed to operate.
 

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There is no real even playing field when it comes to big game draws.

Where is written that it is the right thing to do when a person draws a OIL hunt with 0 points while others will never draw that tag and end up dropping out as they get too old to hunt? I have done the math on a couple of hunts that I am putting in for and have figured that I'll be in my 90's by the time that I draw some of the tags where there are others that will go on 2 or 3 OIL hunts in their lifetime drawing with very few points.

If you want to level the playing field do away with all the points and go to a system that if you draw you draw if not then put in next year. Even this type of system has its flaws. I knew a Utah resident that drew every OIL tag that they offered in his lifetime and most of them were drawn within a 20 year span. While others are still waiting for their first OIL tag.
 

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Be glad they changed it so that if one person in the group turns in a tag they all have to. You used to be able to turn in only 1 tag out of a group... Alot of guys were putting in with a wife who had max points, drawing, turning her tag in.. wait 2 years then draw again. There was even another guy selling spots in the group app with his max point wife. Now if 1 tag of a group gets turned in they all have to be turned in.

I get that Charina has issues with this, I wonder if thoughts would be different if he/she had gotten in on this from the beginning. My question is that there are even bigger loopholes being exploited RIGHT NOW, who here ISNT taking advantage of them? And why? Not knowing about them? Or because of some moral reason?


-DallanC
 

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Everyone might have their reasons for banking points. Alot of people choose not to draw a tag in any given year because they dont forsee having alot of extra money or time available come hunting season. They continue to get points so if the day comes where they are able to spend the thousands of dollars they would like to on their hunt, they will be able to. I know one guy that banked points for his moose tag until after he retired. The year he retired, he was able basically live on the mountain from June until the end of the hunts. Knew every moose, deer and elk on that mountain. It was worth it in his eyes, wouldnt be worth it in mine.
 

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The Antelope applicant jump corresponds to when the UDWR changed the app process to allow NonRes to put in for every species as a justification for making them purchase a Hunting Permit to apply. It demonstrates why Residents should never want to be able to apply for all species-- odds become horrible.

I have no problems with people just buying a point. The problems I see are people who have high points, draw a permit, scout, and turn their tag back the day/week before the hunt. They can draw the tag every year until they find the exact animal they want to hunt. I'd like to see the data on turned-back tags and how it relates to point holders.

My vote is to cap points at 25. Any tag that takes more than a quarter century to draw should not be given through points. Random luck after 25 points/years.
 

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shouldn't be able to turn tags back in except in very strict circumstances..
Having just come from the DWR and turning IN a tag, I think it should be allowed, just not back to back years... or give people the option to turn in a tag once every 5 or so years.

LE / Oil tags that get turned in, get passed along to someone else and used, so its not like it really increases or decreases the overall odds for someone in a lesser tier.

-DallanC
 

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They definitely need to change the requirements on turning a tag back in. Just because you can't find the animal that you want to shoot should not be a reason. Now medical, military or other callings such as a mission are good excuses and it there should be a letter from your doctor, or bishop, and military orders to turn it back in.

I also like the cap on points, but lets drop it down to 10 and then go to a random draw.
 

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Having just come from the DWR and turning IN a tag, I think it should be allowed, just not back to back years... or give people the option to turn in a tag once every 5 or so years.

LE / Oil tags that get turned in, get passed along to someone else and used, so its not like it really increases or decreases the overall odds for someone in a lesser tier.

-DallanC
Don't put in for it if you don't want the tag.
if you draw a tag it should burn your points simple as that... barring a few strict crcumstances
 

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Like packout said the big spike in NR apps was when the DWR decided to let nonresidents put in for all species instead of having to pick just one like residents. NR odds went from bad to terrible the instant that decision was made.
 

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The part of it that gives me pause is that my understanding of the point and waiting period (which perhaps is flawed) is to 'share' the limited resource of high-quality elk hunts. The guy who hunted an LE hunt 6 years ago, can now 'cut in line' by applying in a group with his non-hunting brother and sister-in-law, and hunt a good LE unit again after only 6 years, while the person waiting their turn in the system may still have 10 to 15 years to wait (or more). It does not provide for a level playing field, aside from giving everyone the same opportunity to game the system. I have a hard time swallowing that this is the way the system was designed to operate.
Which is why you should be applying for other states at the same time.

Utah Resident LE $285 (Population ~3 Mil) - 50/50 preference point system draw odds are bad.

Nevada Non Resident LE $1200 (Population ~3 Mil) - Bonus point squared system draw odds are bad.

Idaho Non Resident LE $416 (Population ~1.5 Mil) - Random Draw system with 10% cap on NR - draw odds are bad

Wyoming Non Resident LE $591 (Population ~.5 Mil) 75/25 preference point system draw odds are bad

Montana Non Resident LE $846 (Population ~1 Mil) Bonus point squared system - draw odds are bad

Colorado Non Resident LE $601 (Population ~5 Mil) 100 preference point system - draw odds are bad

Arizona Non Resident LE $665 (Population ~6.5 Mil) Bonus Point Squared system - draw odds are bad

New Mexico Non Resident LE $772 (Population ~2 Mil) Random Draw System 10% cap with weird stuff- draw odds are bad

Limited Elk draws are just bad everywhere and one system does not beat the other.

You can complain about it or you can just go to a state with OTC elk tags and hunt there while waiting your turn to win the lotto.
 

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Say you drew with 15 points. The person you are using the team up with also had fifteen points. That person would have 20 points before you could put in again.

you would start at Ten points (21/2), It could still be a while before you drew again depending on the unit. In 5 years most draws will be a 15/20 year commitment and when you start at ten it could be ten years before your party draws again. Barring the system doesn't change.

There are some things that Utah could do to help the draw odds.

Extend LE Archery to the end of September and give out more tags for the lower success hunt.

Move early rifle into the last week of October, which would be a lower success hunt with more tags available.

Keep the late hunt where it is at

Move Muzzleloader into the middle or late November and take away the stupid 1x scope thing and go with iron or a regular scope, which would be a lower success hunt and thus more tags would be given.

More tags for lower success hunts will push people through the draw system faster and give an opportunity for bulls to grow bigger.

Another thing would be to require CMWU's to do a 1 public for every private tag given and to require NR's to draw thus burning points on CMWU's.

Make Premium hunts that you can use any weapon in any open season, so that people that get a premium tag can hunt with a rifle during the rut. More people would apply for premium, thus freeing the other LE's to cycle people through the system.

Do away with Expo tags and add them back to the Units and replace the expo tags will private land or CMWU hunts.

So, this is certainly a few things that I think would go a long way in helping, but there is really no solution with the amount of people applying for the limited number of tags available.

My 2c
 

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The change allowing NR to apply for all species also coincided with the harvest of the Spider Bull down on the Monroe... Utah was thrust to the forefront of the hunting community and with all the publicity, those in power seized the "opportunity."

It is my opinion that change was nothing more than a huge cash grab.
 
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