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I'm curious as to your reasoning for this? Do you have a factual reason for making that statement? I'm not trying to be aggressive, I just find it frustrating that people try to inject their own ethics onto others. Just because you don't shoot past 300 yards doesn't mean you need to tell others not to.

I shot my buck across canyon at 476 yards last year, and my elk at 640 yards. Would being closer make them more dead?
All I can say is: You are one hell of a shot. Or a damned liar! Do as you will.......
 

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All I can say is: You are one hell of a shot. Or a damned liar! Do as you will.......
LOL I'm an average shot, but I am not a liar. I just take the time to learn my rifle and load through a lot of practice.

But I honestly wanted to know if there as a factual reasoning for your limitation of 300 yards? Bullet construction technology, powder burn rate consistency, and even manufacturer tolerances on stock rifles have all got better over the years. From all my experience and learning, there isn't a scientific\factual reason to limit to 300 yards if you have the ability and confidence to shoot further. With scope tracking and repeatability, if you practice, 400 yards with a .300 win mag is a pretty straight forward shot in calm conditions.

That said, for a lot of people 300 yards is beyond their ethical limit. But these are the people who buy a rifle package from cabelas or wal-mart, go shoot a box of core-lokts at 100 yards and are happy with all the shots just hitting the target.

I appreciate your sentiment, and I think it's great to understand the ethical boundaries of your personal skill. I just don't understand why people try to push their ethics on others. This is like the technology committee looking at scopes that "dial" with exposed turrets.
 

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jlofthouse: On a scope with duplex crosshairs... the ones that are thin at the center of a scope, and thicken a short distance from the center, are precisely designed made this way. This is called the "subtend" of a scope. Most people call the bottom line of the crosshairs the "Post".

That distance from the center to where they thicken is designed to be 4MOA for the majority of scopes. That's 4" at 100 yards.

So, simple math, at 400 yards its 4MOA per 100 yards = 4 * 4" = 16". So at 400 yards, if you put the crosshairs dead on a target, the bottom post where it starts to thicken is 16" below where you aim.

Why does this matter? Well, if your gun ballistics and how you have it sighted in are say, 20" low at 400 yards... you simply use the point where the bottom post starts to thicken as your aim point instead of the crosshairs. This would put your bullet 4" below the point of aim... at 400 yards. The amount the bullet is above and below the top of the bottom post varies according to ammunition, the velocity, ballistic coefficent of the bullet etc etc. So each individual rifle has to be tested independently but it certainly not magic to be able to hit targets that far off.

My 7STW is 3.5 inches high at 400 yards using the bottom post, and its right at 4.5" low using the bottom post at 500 yards (because at 500 yards using 4MOA per 100 yards = 4 * 5 = 20" below the crosshairs at 500 yards).

Also, you can use the distance from the center of the crosshairs to the tip of the bottom post as a quick range finding tool. As you know its 16" at 400... you put your crosshair on the tip of a bucks back, and look at the bottom post. Most deer are 16-18" deep on the chest, so if the buck fills the gap, its under 400 yards, if it doesnt fill the gap its over.

Better Leupold scopes from the 1960s and 1970s actually have range finding built into the zoom, the idea is you adjust the zoom so the buck perfectly fits the distance between the crosshair and post, then you just read the value stamped on the scope zoom.

Side note, you can also use the horizontal distance as windage adjustment aids... if you know the MOA of the wind drift at whatever yards the target is. That distance is also 4MOA for most scopes.

Fun stuff... super old school... yet its surprising how many hunters don't have a clue about this stuff. They want turrets to fart around with and adjust to get that precise shot.

-DallanC
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
jlofthouse: On a scope with duplex crosshairs... the ones that are thin at the center of a scope, and thicken a short distance from the center, are precisely designed made this way. This is called the "subtend" of a scope. Most people call the bottom line of the crosshairs the "Post".

That distance from the center to where they thicken is designed to be 4MOA for the majority of scopes. That's 4" at 100 yards.

So, simple math, at 400 yards its 4MOA per 100 yards = 4 * 4" = 16". So at 400 yards, if you put the crosshairs dead on a target, the bottom post where it starts to thicken is 16" below where you aim.

Why does this matter? Well, if your gun ballistics and how you have it sighted in are say, 20" low at 400 yards... you simply use the point where the bottom post starts to thicken as your aim point instead of the crosshairs. This would put your bullet 4" below the point of aim... at 400 yards. The amount the bullet is above and below the top of the bottom post varies according to ammunition, the velocity, ballistic coefficent of the bullet etc etc. So each individual rifle has to be tested independently but it certainly not magic to be able to hit targets that far off.

My 7STW is 3.5 inches high at 400 yards using the bottom post, and its right at 4.5" low using the bottom post at 500 yards (because at 500 yards using 4MOA per 100 yards = 4 * 5 = 20" below the crosshairs at 500 yards).

Also, you can use the distance from the center of the crosshairs to the tip of the bottom post as a quick range finding tool. As you know its 16" at 400... you put your crosshair on the tip of a bucks back, and look at the bottom post. Most deer are 16-18" deep on the chest, so if the buck fills the gap, its under 400 yards, if it doesnt fill the gap its over.

Better Leupold scopes from the 1960s and 1970s actually have range finding built into the zoom, the idea is you adjust the zoom so the buck perfectly fits the distance between the crosshair and post, then you just read the value stamped on the scope zoom.

Side note, you can also use the horizontal distance as windage adjustment aids... if you know the MOA of the wind drift at whatever yards the target is. That distance is also 4MOA for most scopes.

Fun stuff... super old school... yet its surprising how many hunters don't have a clue about this stuff. They want turrets to fart around with and adjust to get that precise shot.

-DallanC
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Okay I tried the dirty barrel over the weekend. Fired eight shots the first five about a three inch group the last three were touching at 100 yards. Let the rifle cool for 45 minutes or so barrel was cold to the touch or as cold as it could get being 80 degrees out. Fired three more rounds they were touching each other right were I wanted them. I feel I'm ready to hunt now leaving barrel dirty/ fouled. I will go to the range one more time to confirm.
Allen
 

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Okay I tried the dirty barrel over the weekend. Fired eight shots the first five about a three inch group the last three were touching at 100 yards. Let the rifle cool for 45 minutes or so barrel was cold to the touch or as cold as it could get being 80 degrees out. Fired three more rounds they were touching each other right were I wanted them. I feel I'm ready to hunt now leaving barrel dirty/ fouled. I will go to the range one more time to confirm.
Allen
Have a great hunt!
 

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Shoot until the rifle tells you it needs a cleaning
You do that and you may miss the shot of a lifetime.

You need to learn what your rifle likes. But you do need to clean it and not wait until the shots start to open up. It's fine if it starts to open up at the range but if you are hunting you could be in trouble

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I simply do NOT believe that the inconsistency of a dirty barrel will lead to more accuracy. Please show me the science, the studies, the tests. Even looking at it logically, it makes no sense. No, your gun is not special or one of a kind, it will not shoot more "consistently" with the inconsistency of a dirty barrel. You go out and shoot a few rounds from the bench and you finally hit a bulls eye on the third shot and conclude that it was the dirty barrel that brought about the perfect shot...no...it just happened that way. Each shot you take makes the barrel more dirty, more fouled...makes it a "different" barrel if you will. Every target shooter knows that consistency in every single aspect of shooting brings about the best overall results from shot to shot. Change one little thing...bullet weight, case capacity, powder charge, velocity, wind direction, temperature, ANY THING, and you change the point of impact, maybe not a lot, but it does change. So go ahead, shoot with a dirty barrel if you want, in real life hunting it probably will not make much of a difference, but don't go thinking it was because you didn't clean your rifle properly that you hit that deer.
 

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Every target shooter knows that consistency in every single aspect of shooting brings about the best overall results from shot to shot.
This is interesting, and makes sense, but flies in the face of what I’ve been told by actual competition long range shooters. Guys that have money and rep on the line and need to make a perfect shot when it counts in the competitive target shooting community.

Well, I’ve actually only spoken to one, so my sample size is not real big. He is not cleaning his barrels constantly to keep consistently, but allowing them to foul. In fact, his specific advice for hunting is to get your gun dialed in early in the year then don’t do anything with it regarding cleaning until after all hunts are over.

We are talking rifles here, not MLs. The equation changes there.
 

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I simply do NOT believe that the inconsistency of a dirty barrel will lead to more accuracy. Please show me the science, the studies, the tests. Even looking at it logically, it makes no sense. No, your gun is not special or one of a kind, it will not shoot more "consistently" with the inconsistency of a dirty barrel. You go out and shoot a few rounds from the bench and you finally hit a bulls eye on the third shot and conclude that it was the dirty barrel that brought about the perfect shot...no...it just happened that way. Each shot you take makes the barrel more dirty, more fouled...makes it a "different" barrel if you will. Every target shooter knows that consistency in every single aspect of shooting brings about the best overall results from shot to shot. Change one little thing...bullet weight, case capacity, powder charge, velocity, wind direction, temperature, ANY THING, and you change the point of impact, maybe not a lot, but it does change. So go ahead, shoot with a dirty barrel if you want, in real life hunting it probably will not make much of a difference, but don't go thinking it was because you didn't clean your rifle properly that you hit that deer.
How often are you cleaning your centerfire rifles?
 

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This is interesting, and makes sense, but flies in the face of what I’ve been told by actual competition long range shooters. Guys that have money and rep on the line and need to make a perfect shot when it counts in the competitive target shooting community.

Well, I’ve actually only spoken to one, so my sample size is not real big. He is not cleaning his barrels constantly to keep consistently, but allowing them to foul. In fact, his specific advice for hunting is to get your gun dialed in early in the year then don’t do anything with it regarding cleaning until after all hunts are over.

We are talking rifles here, not MLs. The equation changes there.
You are actually correct in that some shooters allow a "consistent" level of fouling in their target rifles. But the key word here is "consistent". They normally have a very regimented procedure they follow. For example, they start with a perfect clean barrel, following the third shot they shoot the shot for record. They don't just keep shooting and shooting and allow the barrel to become more and more fouled in an attempt to find what level of fouling is best. Once they determine what level of fouling, if any, that that particular barrel preforms best, they are meticulous in taking the for record shot at that level and follow a strict procedure to obtain it.
If you have shot your rifle enough to really know that, for example, it shoots it's best shot after two rounds, then I would recommend you take a couple shots before you go hunting and reserve that third, "good" shot for that nice buck standing out there a couple hundred yards. Happy hunting:)
 
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