Muzzleloader Reports
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I thought that the DH program was for those that count the number of antler points for a photo shoot to get some "creds". In all honesty, I don't think there is anything any of us can do about bettering the deer population.
Drop the number of tags by XXX and increase the tag cost by XXX to compensate for the revenue lost in the lesser number of tags. Make it if you draw a tag in 2021 you cant apply until 2023. It's simple economics. Look at the cost of lumber a year ago, astronomical pricing. Folks still purchased it because they had to have it. The lumber resource was there, just not any one in the mills cutting it. We have less deer now, so the only way I know as "HUNTERS" to help out, is to lessen the take and let them grow.
Anyway, back to the topic.... I had a great time hunting the ML season this year. It's always great to get out and dream of the big one making its way back to camp with your tag on it. I'm disappointed with the number of deer I saw and little dink bucks in an area that once produced big mature bucks.
Drop the number of tags by XXX and increase the tag cost by XXX to compensate for the revenue lost in the lesser number of tags. Make it if you draw a tag in 2021 you cant apply until 2023. It's simple economics. Look at the cost of lumber a year ago, astronomical pricing. Folks still purchased it because they had to have it. The lumber resource was there, just not any one in the mills cutting it. We have less deer now, so the only way I know as "HUNTERS" to help out, is to lessen the take and let them grow.
Anyway, back to the topic.... I had a great time hunting the ML season this year. It's always great to get out and dream of the big one making its way back to camp with your tag on it. I'm disappointed with the number of deer I saw and little dink bucks in an area that once produced big mature bucks.
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4,776 Posts
Taxidermist -- is deer hunting (ie: male "buck" deer) the problem with the current deer populations? Would your proposal (reduce tags for male "buck" deer) result in higher deer population numbers? Or would more male "buck" deer result in lower fawn survival rate, resulting in lower overall population numbers?
I don't believe that deer hunting is the problem, and thus don't believe lowering tag numbers to "let them grow" is the answer.
I don't believe that deer hunting is the problem, and thus don't believe lowering tag numbers to "let them grow" is the answer.
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11,518 Posts
Its a very good point, that people often overlook. Does make more fawns. Few bucks can service lots of does.
IF we are at carrying capacity for a deer herd at a winter range, having more bucks means having less does surviving. That in turn translates into fewer fawns the following year.
Is this the case everywhere? No... but in specific areas? I believe so. One thing to note, I think carrying capacity is a variable, dependent on the severity of the winter. One area might be at carrying capacity for a average winter, but could be well over capacity in a massive winter.
Agreed. And you can indirectly prove this by looking in the state and national parks where hunting is not allowed. We don't see huge over populated herds, nor do we see a huge population of massive antlered bucks running around.
-DallanC
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4,452 Posts
Less tags = less deer killed period. You talk about winter range and if it can sustain the amount of the area deer population....The winter ranges have been developed and there isn't a winter range anymore in areas like the Wasatch West unit. Not to mention the freeways and the 10' fences to keep the deer from entering the roads AND MIGRATING. Man has destroyed the habitat to populate themselves and have homes on the hill to overlook the valley.
Remember the old highway between Nephi and Levan prior to the freeway extending through? It was terrifying driving that road in the 80's because of all the deer. The coal trucks were like deer slayers hitting dozens of deer each night. That area hasn't been overpopulated with humans and there homes "YET" so explain why the deer in that area are at below half of what they were.
Its all a sh!t show with the management that's happening now. Doesn't matter I guess, just as long as I get my tag every year so I can see a few deer and maybe a fork horn to blast.
Why do you think they offer the hunts they do to the Youth? The old man has lost interest because it isn't like it was seeing multiple bucks a day and a camp with 4 points hanging in the trees. The youth will wise up and see what is going on when they reach their 20's and grip like I am now.
It sure isn't like it was, and never will be again. That's a fact, and if anyone believes otherwise, they need to see the Neurologist to see what brain damage they have.
Remember the old highway between Nephi and Levan prior to the freeway extending through? It was terrifying driving that road in the 80's because of all the deer. The coal trucks were like deer slayers hitting dozens of deer each night. That area hasn't been overpopulated with humans and there homes "YET" so explain why the deer in that area are at below half of what they were.
Its all a sh!t show with the management that's happening now. Doesn't matter I guess, just as long as I get my tag every year so I can see a few deer and maybe a fork horn to blast.
Why do you think they offer the hunts they do to the Youth? The old man has lost interest because it isn't like it was seeing multiple bucks a day and a camp with 4 points hanging in the trees. The youth will wise up and see what is going on when they reach their 20's and grip like I am now.It sure isn't like it was, and never will be again. That's a fact, and if anyone believes otherwise, they need to see the Neurologist to see what brain damage they have.
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But… but… $FW, the wildlife board and DWR all promised us that restricting us as hunters even more 10 years ago by going to unit by unit management would work! And just 2 years ago we had a record post harvest deer count! You mean they lied to us?? 🙄
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4,776 Posts
Are you saying that the deer population in that area are at half of what they were due to hunting? Remember, the majority of hunting is only for male deer. And each male deer can breed numerous (10 - 12?) does. So all it takes is a few bucks to maintain a population. I do NOT believe that hunting is the reason for population declines.
I actually think that many of the other things you mentioned are partially to blame. I would throw in drought (climate change), elk populations, changes in ranching, and habitat degradation (due to everything mentioned). But not hunting.
Our final family tally for the muzzle loader deer hunt was three bucks. My son got a 25.5" 3x4, my 13 year old grandson got a 24.5" 4x4, and his 16 year old sister got a spike. We couldn't find any bucks on the private land we got to hunt so we switched to public land and did much better. The private land had too many cows eating the place out.
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PBH, I never intended the lack of deer numbers was caused from hunting. Its caused from mismanagement of the resource under changing circumstances. Such as, lack of winter range from urban sprawl and on and on and on. With the lower deer numbers, it's only logical (to me) that deer tags should be reduced in order to try and leave some bucks to breed the does.
I do know this though....There sure the hell isn't the deer that there was in the 80's and early 90's. I know the hard winter in 93 wiped out a lot of deer. It seems it hasn't recovered since that time. I sure don't have the answers to the million dollar question, but it's sad to see what is happening or, NOT happening.
I do know this though....There sure the hell isn't the deer that there was in the 80's and early 90's. I know the hard winter in 93 wiped out a lot of deer. It seems it hasn't recovered since that time. I sure don't have the answers to the million dollar question, but it's sad to see what is happening or, NOT happening.
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If 1 buck can breed 14 does, then how many bucks do we need to breed the does to sustain the herd?
It doesn't make sense to restrict hunting bucks if there are enough bucks to breed the does as per the current populations goals. If we have a surplus of bucks, then we might be counterproductive by allowing mature bucks to live which would take the place of multiple fawns.
Maybe the answer here is that we need to give out more tags?
I think it's easy for us to sit back and say that the DWR is mis-managing. But it isn't hard to look around the entire West and see that mule deer are struggling. It isn't just Utah. And it [obviously] isn't a simple solution.
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Its interesting to note, the earliest record we have of Mule Deer is the Lewis and Clark journals. They mention the "Big eared deer"... and also note they were kind of rare even back then.
Possibly... possibly their population has historically always been low, and the farmer / rancher war on predators, coupled with lack of development at the time, caused conditions where the populations jumped up (temporarily), but now as predator populations increase, range gets developed, highways, automobile accidents, winter storms... the herd populations are continually returning to their historic low levels.
-DallanC
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11,518 Posts
I was hopeful when SSTs came out with that great bullet BC, but held off to see the initial field reports. What alot of people who used them said, is the jacket is very soft on them and they come apart very easy. Lot of disgruntled people who had (in their opinion) poor performance, especially on elk.
I was hoping the SST was basically a XTP with a tip for a much higher BC. But it sounds like while it is a high SD bullet, it doesn't even come close to the XTPs sturdy construction, depth of penetration and devastating wound channel.
I got swayed earlier in the year by all of the new tech, new guns (CVA Accura) and blew a bunch of money and had alot of frustration trying the new powders and crap. This summer I just gave up... went back old school.
Sold the CVA Accura (hands down the worst shooting gun from comfort and accuracy I've ever tried). No more BH209 powder, no more 209 breech plugs, primers, tools etc and whatnot ... no more fancy new high BC bullets... heck, I rarely shoot over 100 yards anyway. 5-6 years ago I had a few years in a row with some 140-155 yard shots, but everything since has been back under 60 yards. Its more fun.
My 2004 Remington still can shoot cloverleafs with XTPs and Pyro... if I do my part. Simple 240 XTP over 90gr pyro for deer, 300gr XTP over 110 pyro for elk. It just works, always. I did switch over to Harvester Crush Rib sabots from the Hornady sabots, it increased consistency overall. Good enough.
Old School rocks.
-DallanC
I was hoping the SST was basically a XTP with a tip for a much higher BC. But it sounds like while it is a high SD bullet, it doesn't even come close to the XTPs sturdy construction, depth of penetration and devastating wound channel.
I got swayed earlier in the year by all of the new tech, new guns (CVA Accura) and blew a bunch of money and had alot of frustration trying the new powders and crap. This summer I just gave up... went back old school.
Sold the CVA Accura (hands down the worst shooting gun from comfort and accuracy I've ever tried). No more BH209 powder, no more 209 breech plugs, primers, tools etc and whatnot ... no more fancy new high BC bullets... heck, I rarely shoot over 100 yards anyway. 5-6 years ago I had a few years in a row with some 140-155 yard shots, but everything since has been back under 60 yards. Its more fun.
My 2004 Remington still can shoot cloverleafs with XTPs and Pyro... if I do my part. Simple 240 XTP over 90gr pyro for deer, 300gr XTP over 110 pyro for elk. It just works, always. I did switch over to Harvester Crush Rib sabots from the Hornady sabots, it increased consistency overall. Good enough.
Old School rocks.
-DallanC
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2,021 Posts
this year, I ran with a 250gr Remington premier expander, which is actually made by Barnes and it performed phenomenally, it put a thumb sized hole on the entrance/exit wound, granted, the buck was a doinker but he was 120 yards.
shot it with 100gr triple7 pellets and triple7 primer, this setup seems to work well for me.
shot it with 100gr triple7 pellets and triple7 primer, this setup seems to work well for me.
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