This should be a fun discussion.

I'll start, I'll bet this will get a lot of attention from the extended warriors

• A new "extended archery only" general-season deer permit application option that would allow successful applicants to hunt only the extended archery hunt areas during the extended season dates (existing extended archery deer hunting opportunities would remain unchanged).

 

I hate the idea of using such a large unit like the Boulder for a trial weapon strategy...in fact, I hate the idea of limiting rifles and muzzleloaders to the extent they are.

 

I’ll be selling hot butter popcorn for the show. If anyone is interested, let me know. We have run out of product the last show.

 

Youth this, Youth that, Blah! Blah! Blah!....... Those leftover Youth tags should be allocated to the General Season tags for everyone.

 

Page 133 of the RAC packet has a provision that leftover youth tags are going to roll back into the general pool.

After reading the majority of the RAC packet, I can say the proposals are . . . interesting.

 

I have to wonder how much time the "youth" spends on the hunt.

 

I can personally say that in my grandsons situation, that a total of 5 days have been spent in the field this year TOTAL. Dad, would rather stay at home winterizing the trailer, and many other things. I have begged to take my grandson out to find something to shoot at. I was told that Dad wanted to be there when he shoots his first deer. I am mad as he!! about this!!!!

 

Scope restrictions on muzzleloaders was an irritant, but starting to implement those same restrictions on modern rifles is completely ridiculous.

If overharvest is an issue, sell fewer tags, don't make me peel my scope off of a rifle that gets used for other purposes as well.

I know, I know, the DWR can never pass up the almighty dollar, but it's a nice thought!

 

If you have any experience rifle deer hunting, you know the scoped rifle group does the most damage. I like the idea, but let them have a 4x max.

 

Why?

Is the intent to reduce accuracy? To reduce range?

 

Scope restrictions on any legal weapon are the types of suggestions pulled right out of the rear end of someone. It's a "solution" without an identified problem and/or reasoning. Change for the sake of change is poor management.



"Everyone look busy" behavior.

 

Scope restrictions on any legal weapon are the types of suggestions pulled right out of the rear end of someone. It's a "solution" without an identified problem and/or reasoning. Change for the sake of change is poor management.

Same tracks for muzzleloaders. Scopes with telescopic optics do not make the rifle shoot further, increase the firing rate, or make it inherently more accurate. To me it simply allows the best chance to put the animal down humanely with the rest of the rifle's limitations intact. Yanking the scopes from muzzys was boneheaded.

 

1) We recommend implementing the following hunt restrictions: a) Four points or more (on at least one side) antler restrictions on the Pine Valley unit. i) Restriction is for adults only. ii) Youth may harvest any buck b) Restricted muzzleloader and restricted rifle hunts on the following hunt units: i) Beaver, West ii) Boulder/Kaiparowits iii) Cache iv) Weapons restrictions will be based on the recently passed definitions. c) Restricted archery, restricted muzzleloader and restricted rifle hunts on the Thousand Lakes unit. i) Weapons restrictions will be based on the recently passed definitions.

I'm not sure I agree with the weapon restrictions particularly on the Cache. I don't even own any that would qualify.

 

1) We recommend implementing the following hunt restrictions: a) Four points or more (on at least one side) antler restrictions on the Pine Valley unit. i) Restriction is for adults only. ii) Youth may harvest any buck b) Restricted muzzleloader and restricted rifle hunts on the following hunt units: i) Beaver, West ii) Boulder/Kaiparowits iii) Cache iv) Weapons restrictions will be based on the recently passed definitions. c) Restricted archery, restricted muzzleloader and restricted rifle hunts on the Thousand Lakes unit. i) Weapons restrictions will be based on the recently passed definitions.
matchlock, musket cap, or percussion cap which must be entirely visible when the hammer is drawn back. All other ignition systems, including 209 primers, are prohibited; and (b) contains only open sights or peep sights. Restricted rifle — current definition with the following additional restrictions: (a) contains only open sights or peep sights; and (b) cannot be semi-automatic.

 

The problem with restricting a scope to 4x is that you will always have those who will take shots that they have no business taking.

Most of the hunters who I have hunted with throughout my hunting life of the last 50 years have had at least a 3-9 variable scope on their rifles. Not one of those hunters have ever taken a shot over 300 yards at a deer.

Then you have those who have no idea of how far they are shooting. You always hear about someone taking a 600 yard shot on a elk. Most of those hunters have no idea of what the bullet drop is for a 7mm Rem Mag or a 300 Win Mag at that range. They say that they put the + on the top of the elks back and hit him in the lungs or heart. Take those same hunters out to a actual measured range and tell them to try the same shot, even off of a bench and they can't do it. Their whole lives they have thought that a 300-400 yard shot was 600-700 yards.

We all have said that something needs to be done but none of us want to deal with the consequences of what is being talked about.

 

So is everyone jumping back over to muzzleloader because they can use a 1X scope?

 

Depending on the dates that they might set up for the restricted rifle season and if it is considered a general tag or a LE hunt I'd think about them.

 

As proposed they are for certain units during the same general time frame as the general rifle hunt. Sacrificing current ALW hunts to accommodate the proposed regulations.

 

We're going to end up with statewide HAMS hunts it seems like.

-DallanC

 

A few thoughts, in no particular order of importance, upon first review of what is proposed.


1. "Part of that has involved identifying the limiting factors for deer population growth through our GPS collar data and working to address those factors. That includes increasing targeted predator removal, increasing the amount of habitat and associated restoration projects to benefit mule deer, and combating disease through targeted hunting strategies, among other things."

"An updated plan for managing chronic wasting disease in Utah's deer populations, including expanding disease testing, encouraging disposal of deer carcasses in approved landfills and having the ability to recommend targeted hunts in chronic wasting disease hotspot areas."

The devil is always in the details, but I like this. Here is where we might actually be able to help the herd. I would like to hear more.

2.

• "Updated sustainable harvest goals. One of the new proposed strategies would adjust the general-season deer hunting unit objectives — by modifying some of the units' buck-to-doe ratios to 15-17 — in order to optimize herd productivity, reduce disease risks and increase hunter participation."

This sounds like they are going to adjust the Buck/doe ratios downwards some in many units. Great! That should allow more tags to be issued and remember what the biologists told us on recent podcasts posted here. Fawn survival is inversely correlated with the Buck/doe ratio. High Buck/doe, low fawn survival. This also should help improve overall herd numbers and allow genuine increased opportunity.

3.

• "Implementing antler restrictions for four points or more (on at least one side) on the Pine Valley hunting unit. This restriction would only apply to adults — youth would still be able to harvest any buck on that unit."

I want to throw up in my mouth. How many times do we have to do APR to see it solves little, and 4 point APR is even worse. Why put the selective pressure only on the bucks with the best genetics and allow the 3 points to propagate. Great way to get a mountain full of 3 points.

4.

• "Restricted muzzleloader and restricted rifle hunts on the Beaver, West; Boulder/Kaiparowits and Cache hunting units. Archery would not be restricted. The weapons restrictions would be based on recently passed definitions of restricted weapons.
• Restricted archery, restricted muzzleloader and restricted rifle hunts on the Thousand Lakes hunting unit. The weapons restrictions for this hunt would also be based on recently passed definitions of restricted weapons."

Randomelk said it best. A solution without a problem. It will improve our deer herd how?
I still maintain crap like this is proposed solely by folks that want to keep unworthy "outsiders" or "others" from applying for "their" tags that are increasingly hard to draw. But since whiney self interest groups have gotten a few concessions here and there, they keep going.

5.

• "New general-season deer hunts on five hunting units that the DWR is proposing some updated boundary changes for, as part of the updates to the management plan."

Does this mean that we may be getting re drawn hunt units? I might favor this. Some units are huge and a couple kind of small, and splitting a couple of the big ones up may help with more focused management.


6. "

• "Discontinuing a bison hunt in the Book Cliffs, Little Creek/South unit in order to reduce hunting pressure in that unit."

Would like to hear more about this too. Sad to see it.

 

I really like the way you broke this down and agree on pretty much every point you mentioned.

like you, I see no reason for the restrictions on weapons. I can appreciate that the dwr is willing to try something different but if we go this route, but I think there are other issues to be tackled

 

I’m just glad none of the units I hunt are on the chopping block for boundary changes

 

Yet.

 

Isn't it ironic that in a red state like Utah (where we supposedly disdain government regulation), hunters are so passionate about creating more regulations? Every year. Year after year. I'm just grateful that in this state, we enjoy the constitutional right to hunt...as long as we have the state's permission. Funny thing is that for over a half-century, I've heard warnings about the "antis". Yet the only regulations that have restricted my hunting have been imposed by guys in camo.

 

It isn't that guys in camo it is the population that wants to hunt with a limited resource.

If you let every one have a tag that wants a deer tag hunt every year how long do you suppose that Utah's deer herds would last? I watched this happen in a couple of very good units when it seamed like the whole population from the Wasatch Front showed up to shoot anything that moved. These units quickly dropped from a very good unit to hunt to one where it was hard to find deer on before the DWR closed both of them down for a number of years.

I have often wondered just how long the deer would last on a very large unit such as the Manti if they allowed unlimited tags such as they did back in the 80's and early 90's

 

Its the North American Hunting Model, Roosevelts and people like Aldo Leopold realized this and that is why there are restrictions, or we as humans will just kill everything till there is nothing left. If hunting wasn't so popular I don't think we would be having the proposed restriction. We have a finite resources that we are killing off and to many people want to do the killing.

It is also why I don't agree with all the youth opportunities and (I have never agree with them) we don't need to recruit hunters

 

It is also why I don't agree with all the youth opportunities and (I have never agree with them) we don't need to recruit hunters

I'll disagree here. From my Cabela's Corporate days, we tracked hunter participation and age demographics very, very closely. We need to recruit hunters. We need to recruit youth hunters in particular, from a Macro level. Without youth hunters, then hunting participation goes down. Hunting participation goes down, then revenues go down.

The active hunting population is aging. And at the same time, hunting license holders are reducing. One key factor is access and opportunity. Look at the pheasant hunt and deer hunt as an example. Less habitat, more building, less pheasants and virtually no pheasant hunting. I used to be able to pheasant hunt out of my back door as a kid. Now it's subdivisions. Deer hunt was almost a holiday. It was a family affair. The population isn't near what it was even a few decades ago. The per hunter spend has trended up with elite gear and higher ticket items (not just inflation).

I'm absolutely for youth anything. I'm absolutely for getting kids outside. I'm absolutely for getting them off their screen. I'm absolutely for doing whatever it takes to get more kids in the field and being an active hunter. That creates a generation that hunts. Conserving habitat and conserving hunters has to include recruiting young hunters, and really any hunter at all.

 

Weapon restrictions = lower harvest = ability to issue more tags and kill the same number of deer = more hunting opportunity

I believe that we could use more hunting opportunity in Utah, it is a problem

Perhaps @RandomElk16 & @Catherder believe that we have enough hunting opportunity and that is why you say weapon restrictions are a solution without a problem? I think that's being disingenuous.

You have to ask yourself a question, do I love my scope more than I love hunting more often.

 

You have to ask yourself a question, do I love my scope more than I love hunting more often.

I think there's some fellers out there who love their fancy scope and talking about shooting animals at 1000 yds more than they love their wife and kids. To be clear, I have a fancy scope, I like my family more but the scope was cheaper than a kid and it doesn't talk back to me like my 5 year old. So, maybe they are onto something I don't know. As a side not, I'm glad I moved and don't hunt the cache anymore.

What I find interesting is if this is all being done in the name of saving the deer. I see a lot of arguments on here about improving the herd. Current tag numbers and hunter harvest is not taking buck to doe ratios below a level of reproduction. In my eyes, this is not a biological issue, it is a social issue. Reduced efficacy allows for increased tags and greater opportunity while killing the same number of bucks. Bucks don't have fawns. If we want more deer on the landscape we should be managing for reduced buck to doe ratios so there are more does. I like that aspect of changes, that it a biological change to reduce buck to doe ratios and improve herd reproduction. I would be in favor of taking it even lower than 15. I think about it like cattle or sheep. Nobody runs 20 bulls to 100 cows. They want enough bull power to cover every cow but each animal in there that isn't reproducing is taking up resources that could be going into a calf.

As for the weapon restrictions...don't love it but like that they are trying something new for increased opportunity. Again, this one is totally a social issue not biological at all in my opinion.

 

"Sometimes, the public asks the DWR to test new strategies or to take a fresh look at management practices that may have been implemented and discontinued in the past. The mule deer hunting strategies most frequently asked about and requested by hunters include antler point restrictions and restrictions on hunting weapon technology. These strategies are often viewed as ways to increase hunting opportunity while also managing for more mature bucks. Many of these strategies have been tested in the past in Utah and other western states with mixed results. However, with new research capabilities in place, along with different hunt structures and an intense and growing demand and interest in mule deer hunting, we are proposing to implement these strategies on a few units in Utah on a trial basis. We want to research their impacts on mule deer populations and understand the social implications of these strategies."

Translation:

"Fine. These dumbphucks won't listen when we explain the various different ways that APRs have been shown to not work in other states. So, let's show them that we're not special and maybe they'll FINALLY shut up about APRs."

Spoiler: they won't.

 

Translation:

"Fine. These dumbphucks won't listen when we explain the various different ways that APRs have been shown to not work in other states. So, let's show them that we're not special and maybe they'll FINALLY shut up about APRs."

Spoiler: they won't.

This is exactly what it is. All those proposal are from the RAC meetings that clamor for increased regulations and decreased efficiency to "save the deer." It is all just a giant social experiment. And a huge fuster cluck.

 

Does anybody else feel like they are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic at this point? I appreciate their efforts to "get creative" and think outside the box to balance herd health and hunting opportunity, but it feels like they are just throwing mud at the wall and seeing if anything sticks and I really don't see anything sticking.

I feel like we have already lost the fight when we are purposely hamstringing a guys odds at being successful in order to sell more tags. Yeah, I wanna hunt, but I kinda like to be successful as well and not stymied by a gauntlet of regulations and short season dates. By the way, if we make seasons shorter, how is that going to effect the crowding issues during the limited days of the season we still have? Conversations like this get me feeling depressed about the future of hunting. Time to figure out how to get rich I guess. 🤷

 

Colorado has multiple seasons. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th rifle for both elk and deer. 2nd or 3rd is most coveted. For as whacky as CO can be- especially the Front Range, they seem to be doing some good things for opportunity.

I also think by making a ton of micro units, it ended up hurting more than helping. I'm sure before I can remember it used to just be a deer tag and you could go anywhere. But I remember going over to Bear River and hunting with a Cache Deer tag to hunt a girl I was dating at the time's land. No bucks. And she wanted a romantic experience. I wanted a deer. We didn't last long after that. I couldn't handle the crazy.

 

Here's a new proposal:

Unlimited resident OTC tags for each GS deer unit. Set kill quotas for each unit. Mandatory reporting of harvest within 24hrs of kill and mandatory daily call in to a hotline before hunting to check if the unit is open or closed.

 

I will say that as a neophyte traditional toxophilite I found the restricted archery seasons intriguing. It looks like this is only being done on the thousand lakes unit as of right now. I have never set foot on this unit and only know that it used to be a LE unit that was downgraded to general. Recent reports of people who have hunted it don't sound promising. Oh well. Maybe it will be an easy second choice draw. I wouldn't think most guys would have much interest in a stick bow only unit. But I have thought wrong before...

 

Thousand Lakes is also proposed to go back to LE.

 

Utah has an increasing population and it's not going to stop in our lifetimes. More population = more hunters. If you have kids you are adding to this population and subsequent demand. I know I am!

Our wildlife populations are stagnant / highly dependent on weather patterns. We all want more deer but if a magic solution was there we would do it. Since this part of the equation is mostly out of our control we have to look at how we manage ourselves to increase our opportunity.

More demand, less supply = less hunting (assuming we don't change the way we hunt)

I think a solution is to decrease success rates by restricting weapon lethality. I would shoot for 15-20% success rates across the board. That's not too low, close to archery

Some other solutions have been floated here--like killing more bucks and decreasing the buck to doe ratio to increase tags.

Johnnycakes floated the idea of a complete open season that shuts down the moment the harvest objective has been met--it's at least an idea albeit a radical one but something to be considered.

Seems like a lot here are trashing the DWR's ideas (or floating conspiracy theories) instead of brainstorming possible solutions. If you like the status quo that's fine, as for me I like to hunt and not wait around for a tag.

Let's hear some real ideas here guys, how are we going to increase or at least maintain our current hunting opportunity with our huge growing human population? Concentration camps is not an option

 

Johnnycakes floated the idea of a complete open season that shuts down the moment the harvest objective has been met--it's at least an idea albeit a radical one but something to be considered.

The problem with JC's idea is that for hunters like myself it would force me into shooting the first buck that I see, instead of waiting for the whole season and perhaps going home with tag soup.

For the last 37 years ever since I picked up my LL I have been selective on the deer that I have killed. Even thinking about it I doubt that I have killed more than 15 or so deer in that same time frame. It isn't because the opportunity didn't present itself to me it is just that I am very selective on the deer that I'd shoot and that is my choice. But with a harvest objective in place I believe that a lot more deer will be shot, at least until the objective is met.

If you listen to most of the hunters out in the field today they will say that they are hunting to "feed" their family. They must be shooting some huge deer since most of the deer that I have shot can be consumed by a family in just a few weeks if they are eating meat. The days of "feeding" the family on deer meat are long gone and people need to realize it.