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It’s all going to get attacked as this can of worms gets opened.
That is the very point that the wildlife board is making in creating the “technology committee” they directed at the last meeting. Look at all technology and see what has crossed whatever arbitrary threshold will be set as “fair chase.” That said, it shouldn’t be a huge surprise that the first target is variable higher powered scopes on muzzleloaders. They only started to be allowed 5 years ago. And it was VERY controversial even when it finally passed to allow them. It’s not like there is decades of tradition being attacked here.

If we want to increase opportunity and make it fair on the deer we should only hunt with hand made bows and arrows like the native Americans did.
If you want it like when the native Americans were the ones chasing the deer, you won’t have increased opportunity. There were not many deer on the landscape back then. Let’s not make the argument that we should go back to those times.
 

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Those CPA's are pretty dialed in on data! CPA clearly shows increased interest and harvest when magnified scopes were allowed. Hopefully the boards will reverse and restore to 1x limit.
Yes it does. But what it doesn't show is any data compared to any weapon and archery hunts. With any weapon and muzzle loader tags coming from the same pool it really doesn't matter unless it shows that muzzle loaders are more effective at killing bucks than rifles.
 

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I would be glad to see scopes and in-lines banned. The muzzy hunt would go back to a primitive hunt. What I would really like to see is a law like Wisconsin's, that you have to be 100 yards from your truck or ATV to shoot.
 

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I would be glad to see scopes and in-lines banned. The muzzy hunt would go back to a primitive hunt. What I would really like to see is a law like Wisconsin's, that you have to be 100 yards from your truck or ATV to shoot.
Once again, utahs muzzleloader hunt was never designed to be a “primitive” hunt. It’s a muzzleloader hunt. Go live in Wisconsin if that style of hunting fits your desires better.
 

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Once again, utahs muzzleloader hunt was never designed to be a “primitive” hunt. It’s a muzzleloader hunt. Go live in Wisconsin if that style of hunting fits your desires better.
I told you in the other thread though - it doesn't matter why it started, what it was like 20 years ago, or what it was like 10 years ago.

It matters how they perceive it right now. That's why I want them to come out and say what they believe the current intent of that hunt is. If they make the rules, I want to hear what they think. Then, people can challenge that thinking.

Otherwise, it's going to be random rule after rule that are being challenged. Why not address the core source first before all the rules come? Tell us WTF you are proposing these rules, what data if any you have behind them, and then people can challenge both the purpose of the committee/rules as well as the individual rules.

If they come out and say this has nothing to do with anything but social elements - then there is a record of that and we are in for a **** future because nothing changes like social trends. If they say "Fair Chase" - camera's and external things are one thing but challenging the accuracy of firearms is another. There isn't anything more fair to an animal you are shooting at than giving it an accurate and lethal shot which modern equipment provides. Again - different angles to attack the rules but it matters what their core "why" is.
 

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Once again, utahs muzzleloader hunt was never designed to be a “primitive” hunt. It’s a muzzleloader hunt. /QUOTE]
And when it started all muzzleloaders where primitive so what's your point?

Those of us who prefer a muzzleloader season with restrictions, which limit participation and increases our enjoyment never went away.
 

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So where do we draw the line as far as what is "primitive" with our muzzle loaders? Flintlocks or matchlocks?
 

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So where do we draw the line as far as what is "primitive" with our muzzle loaders? Flintlocks or matchlocks?
We may not need to draw the line. Again - depends on if the DWR is making restrictions based on the concept that it's primitive, why they would do that (do they believe success truly goes down, do they have data, and will they subsequently increase tags), and then cross that bridge.

If it's purely a social aspect or "fair chase" then it's somewhere in the middle I imagine.


I don't know what the result of either of those looks like. Someone mentioned earlier if it's "primitive" it would mean almost everyone getting a new ML. If it's social or fair chase based, it likely just impacts optics and maybe a few people shooting ultra's and gunwerks style stuff.
 

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You all can blame me. I'm the black cat that crossed everyones path. The first year (last year), i decide, "Ok, i'm gonna do this critter lick thing, and I know just where to put it"..... and they ban it. Last year was the first year I decided to seriously run trail cams.. now they ban their use past the end of july. Last year was the first year I decided to finally put a scope on my smokepole , and now this thread appears.

My give a schitt, just took a schitt.
Ya looks like it might be you 😂 Would you put the hunt back in hunting for crying out loud?
 

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And when it started all muzzleloaders where primitive so what's your point?

Those of us who prefer a muzzleloader season with restrictions, which limit participation and increases our enjoyment never went away.
Product Wood Organism Font Recipe

by definition, my RUML is primitive. Sorry to knot up your panties.
 

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I would be glad to see scopes and in-lines banned. The muzzy hunt would go back to a primitive hunt. What I would really like to see is a law like Wisconsin's, that you have to be 100 yards from your truck or ATV to shoot.
Feel free to hunt without scopes and shoot 100 yards away from your vehicle. Nobody is stopping you.

And when it started all muzzleloaders where primitive so what's your point?

Those of us who prefer a muzzleloader season with restrictions, which limit participation and increases our enjoyment never went away.
I find it challenging that you increase your enjoyment by taking someone else's enjoyment away.
 

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For me, this has been an informative thread. I drew a ML antelope tag in 2021 and had HUGE plans to put together a flintlock or percussion muzzleloader kit and try to kill an antelope with a PRB. When it came right down to it, I got lazy and just stuck with the inline because it was easier.

I still want to get a percussion and hunt with a PRB - either Colorado cow moose, Idaho antelope, or Wyoming antelope... Does anyone have a .54 Hawken or Lyman they want to get rid of?!?!
 

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For me, this has been an informative thread. I drew a ML antelope tag in 2021 and had HUGE plans to put together a flintlock or percussion muzzleloader kit and try to kill an antelope with a PRB. When it came right down to it, I got lazy and just stuck with the inline because it was easier.

I still want to get a percussion and hunt with a PRB - either Colorado cow moose, Idaho antelope, or Wyoming antelope... Does anyone have a .54 Hawken or Lyman they want to get rid of?!?!
Do they still make anything in .54 caliber anymore? I know when I have looked for supplies about all you can find is old stock stuff that people have bought up from stores going out of business.

I have a TC Renegade in .54 that I shoot using 430 grain maxi balls that I cast myself. They are deadly on elk withing 100 yards.
 

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Yea 54's are hard to find. And you need minimum a 54 cal to even hunt elk (to meet the minimum projectile weight requirement), if those who want to push for a roundball restriction had their way.

You need a slow twist for roundballs too... 1/66 minimum, 1/72 is better (1/48 sucks). Most existing 54's are much faster than that. IIRC, 1/32's were the popular twist in that caliber. IDK if you can even find guns like that without a HUGE expense.

ML Elk hunting would mostly be done at that point for the average guy.

-DallanC
 

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Those CPA's are pretty dialed in on data! CPA clearly shows increased interest and harvest when magnified scopes were allowed. Hopefully the boards will reverse and restore to 1x limit.
Except that data doesn't show anything but an increase in harvest percentage. There is no context for the information shared.

Here is a little more context which tells a much different story...

PopulationArchery SuccessMZ SuccessRifle Success
2019
311,125​
16.5%​
27.0%​
29.3%​
2018​
376,450​
22.0%​
37.5%​
39.4%​
2017​
363,650​
19.9%​
33.5%​
37.9%​
2016​
374,450​
21.5%​
39.3%​
43.7%​
2015​
384,650​
23.9%​
34.5%​
42.5%​
2014​
355,600​
20.8%​
31.1%​
38.7%​
2013​
332,900​
18.4%​
30.7%​
37.5%​
2012​
318,550​
19.1%​
32.0%​
36.5%​
2011​
286,100​
16.4%​
19.6%​
28.9%​
2010​
293,700​
17.4%​
22.7%​
25.1%​
2009​
307,700​
20.6%​
29.4%​
30.3%​
2008​
273,500​
19.7%​
27.6%​
28.0%​
2007​
302,430​
23.0%​
33.3%​
35.8%​

This indicates the more likely explanation for increased rates is higher populations numbers. Regardless of weapon choice, success rates generally increase or decrease in relationship to the size of the deer herd. Post hunt deer populations were at there highest from 2015 through 2018, which also happens to be the years with the highest success ratios regardless of weapon choice.

As far as variable scopes driving interest in muzzleloader hunting, the numbers shared only indicate there was an increase in muzzleloader hunters because available tags increased over that time frame. Opportunity in Utah is capped by the number of tags the UDWR makes available. This is shown below.

Permits IssuedHunters Afield% of tags hunted
2019​
16,342​
13,840​
85%​
2018​
16,734​
14,134​
84%​
2017​
16,279​
14,218​
87%​
2016​
16,941​
14,561​
86%​
2015​
16,149​
13,873​
86%​
2014​
15,825​
13,502​
85%​
2013​
15,649​
13,578​
87%​
2012​
15,238​
12,916​
85%​
Increase​
1,104​
924​

The only way to know if interest in hunting with a muzzleloader increased with the introduction of scopes would be to be able to see application numbers in relation to applications for archery and rifle tags during the same time frame. That data is not available as far as I can tell.

There is little data here to support getting rid of variable scopes for muzzleloaders.

As has been stated by other posters, the muzzleloader hunt was never called or designated as a primitive weapon hunt which is difficult at best to define anyway.
 

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Hmmm I have an old pitted 50cal hawkin barrel still... I always planned to bore out the rifling and turn it into a 50 or 54 smoothbore shotgun (using sabot body's as the wad). That could actually be interesting if you loaded it up with a bunch of #4, 0 or 00 Buckshot.

-DallanC
 
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