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Got and email from Big Game Forever. There is a bill about Sage Grouse Habitat and them being on the endangered species list.

Here is a link if you are interested or know more about it and can comment on it.

http://view.s6.exacttarget.com/?j=f...e7311&jb=ff981576&ju=fe5915777d61017f7613&r=0

I put it in big game since they feel it endangers our hunting land for big game and it will be viewed by more.

"Why is this bill important to hunters? Powerful anti-hunting groups want to control the heart of elk and mule deer hunting in America. That's why activist groups have been attempting to force federal control of wolves, Sage-grouse AND THEIR HABITAT."
 

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I think there are a lot of people being proactive in conservation efforts to avoid listing without all the scare tactics. I also think that the land transfer issue bears more of a threat to our lands for hunting. I would rather have federal ownership restricting access to protect wildlife than private interest completely shutting off access to protect $$$.
 

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The sage grouse thing isn't about shutting out hunting at all. It is about shutting down domestic oil and gas production, and the associated fracking that is part of it. Sage grouse are to the oil and gas industry, what the spotted owl was to logging industry in the 80s and 90s.
 

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The sage grouse thing isn't about shutting out hunting at all. It is about shutting down domestic oil and gas production, and the associated fracking that is part of it. Sage grouse are to the oil and gas industry, what the spotted owl was to logging industry in the 80s and 90s.
They will also hurt ranching and access on public lands during certain times of the year.
 

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I'm not worried. We have Ryan Benson in our corner! He got wolves delisted and will stop this dead in its tracks.
I hope you're being sarcastic. If not, you should read how SFW/BGF actually acted about wolf delisting and which side of the fence they were on. I also recommend you brush up on the Press Release specifically about SFW from other Conservation Orgs referencing the wolf fight.

Sage Grouse being listed under the ESA is not nearly as big of a threat as the Land Grab fraud is to the future of hunting.
 

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I hope you're being sarcastic. If not, you should read how SFW/BGF actually acted about wolf delisting and which side of the fence they were on. I also recommend you brush up on the Press Release specifically about SFW from other Conservation Orgs referencing the wolf fight.

Sage Grouse being listed under the ESA is not nearly as big of a threat as the Land Grab fraud is to the future of hunting.
I'm being very sarcastic. The guy is fraud. All we did was buy him a better car with our tax dollars.
 

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I have a question I have asked multiple people on this, and have yet to get an answer. Taking only the hunting aspect into play, let me set the stage with some background.

The state claims that if the sage grouse gets listed it will impact the state's economy to the effect of around $20 billion and 200,000 future jobs. So here's the question:

What does the state plan to do in sage grouse habitat that will result in 200,000 jobs and $20 billion in revenue? And exactly how are those activities going to benefit me as a hunter?

The listing of sage grouse probably will impact some areas. Some road closures, etc. are possible. However, it will NOT, in my opinion, close off any access for hunting. But 200,000 jobs very well could. Just sayin...
 

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You want a rebound in sage grouse, just allow 1 well per 1,000 grouse. I guarantee big oil will breed up a million of them and turn them loose.


-DallanC
 

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They will also hurt ranching and access on public lands during certain times of the year.
Man I feel bad for those cattlemen how are they going to afford diesel in there 70k dollar truck. Public access is a concern bur ranchers not so much after the crying about elk herds
 

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All I Have to Say Is FUBAR Not going to let the cat out of the bag. But I have seen more Sage Chickens in the last 6 years than I've seen in 20.yrs. SOOO put this on the endangered list..Along With The Most Important Thing in Our life time "" Global Warming and Climate Change"". WOW!! Where have I heard That??Don't Hunt.. Don't Frack.And lets get George Looney Tunes and Matt Damon to make the movie.. Invasion or Decline of the SAGE CHICKENS. RATED HORSE CRAP!!:):)
 

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I think there are a lot of people being proactive in conservation efforts to avoid listing without all the scare tactics. I also think that the land transfer issue bears more of a threat to our lands for hunting. I would rather have federal ownership restricting access to protect wildlife than private interest completely shutting off access to protect $$$.
Not sure what scare tactics you're refering to. The only scare tactic BS I see is that propaganda BS filled email Benson is sending out.

bowgy, If you don't want Benson sending you those stupid emails, send him an email telling him to stop sending you that crap. That's what I did.
 

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Not sure what scare tactics you're refering to. The only scare tactic BS I see is that propaganda BS filled email Benson is sending out.

bowgy, If you don't want Benson sending you those stupid emails, send him an email telling him to stop sending you that crap. That's what I did.
That's the scare tactic I was referring to. Give us your money so we can fight against (insert species here) or else there will be no place and no wildlife left to hunt.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Not sure what scare tactics you're refering to. The only scare tactic BS I see is that propaganda BS filled email Benson is sending out.

bowgy, If you don't want Benson sending you those stupid emails, send him an email telling him to stop sending you that crap. That's what I did.
Yeah, I don't know much about BGF, never had the time to mess with them, that is why I posted it here to get some other views and information on the subject.

I do appreciate the replies and opinions that have been expressed.
 

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TS30 does bring up an excellent point though. ESA listing of the sage grouse would be devastating to the oil and gas industries that are drilling in sage steppe environments. However, these are also, or were, great mule deer habitats. The revenue loss of $20 billion I don't doubt, but I do doubt the 200,000 jobs. There certainly are NOT 200,000 O&G jobs in Utah right now. In fact, since the Saudis dropped the price of crude, several of my friends that have been employed out in the Basin in the O&G industry have been laid off. It is part of a boom/bust cycle of that industry. The big boom in North Dakota has leveled off and jobs are leaving as quick as they came to that part of the country.

But the sage grouse are just the poster child for the sage ecosystems. Populations have and will continue to fluctuate along with drought cycles and fire practices in sage communities. It always has been, and always will be. But seeing entire swaths of land (think the Jona and Anticline Fields outside of Pinedale, WY or out in the Uinta Basin) are eaten up in basically one continuous drill pad - and that is why wildland advocates are looking for something to curtail that kind of habitat transformation. The assertion of habitat fragmentation due to the web of roads is pretty hard to refute, even for the biggest critics.

To me though, I don't see the fragmentation as the biggest issue related to the O&G development. To me, the biggest issue is not the direct impact of fragmentation, but the induced impact of altered fire management in developed O&G areas. Fragmentation can be mitigated to an extent through passage zones, changes in pad density, road recovery practices, and buffers around leks. However, wildfire management is a much bigger issue. Healthy sage steppe is fire dependent, and needs a fire interval of about 15-20 years to really work. So fire needs to be a regular part of the sage environments. But with billions of dollars of O&G assets out there, and assets that will turn into a blow torch, do you really think the FS and BLM are going to "let it burn"? Not a chance. And without regular fire, you don't get multiple age class plants, resulting in a mono-age situation. This is DEVASTATING to mule deer, pronghorn, sage grouse, any any other critter than depends on the sage environment to thrive.

And this leads to the land grab issue. BLM and the FS can let a few thousand acres burn here and there every year. It is good for the entire system when that happens. But it only works when whole valleys, mountains, or watersheds can be viewed in context. If that is subdivided into 5, 20, 100, even 1,000 acre parcels for the selling, each of those buyers cannot afford to let those acres burn. The land can no longer be managed in a larger context, but each owner of the 1,000 acre parcel must look out for their own. And any kind of remaining eco-context is completely lost.

And it is that kind of habitat loss/fragmentation/transformation that IS happening now, that causes those that want to stop it, to push for invoking the ESA in some attempt to stop it. It isn't about the sage grouse right now. It is about seeing what we are doing on a larger scale and saying "holy crap. What are we doing to ourselves?"

I think as generally politically conservative outdoorsmen types, we are in an interesting spot. The party that backs less government, our right to carry guns, and private property rights is also the party that chants "drill baby drill". While the party that tends towards greater environmental protections leans towards increased government control of everything from our guns to our 4wd trucks. As an outdoorsman, I feel like a political refugee.

Which leads me to ask the question - anyone want to re-ignite TR's Bull Moose Party?
 

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TS30 does bring up an excellent point though. ESA listing of the sage grouse would be devastating to the oil and gas industries that are drilling in sage steppe environments. However, these are also, or were, great mule deer habitats. The revenue loss of $20 billion I don't doubt, but I do doubt the 200,000 jobs. There certainly are NOT 200,000 O&G jobs in Utah right now. In fact, since the Saudis dropped the price of crude, several of my friends that have been employed out in the Basin in the O&G industry have been laid off. It is part of a boom/bust cycle of that industry. The big boom in North Dakota has leveled off and jobs are leaving as quick as they came to that part of the country.

But the sage grouse are just the poster child for the sage ecosystems. Populations have and will continue to fluctuate along with drought cycles and fire practices in sage communities. It always has been, and always will be. But seeing entire swaths of land (think the Jona and Anticline Fields outside of Pinedale, WY or out in the Uinta Basin) are eaten up in basically one continuous drill pad - and that is why wildland advocates are looking for something to curtail that kind of habitat transformation. The assertion of habitat fragmentation due to the web of roads is pretty hard to refute, even for the biggest critics.

To me though, I don't see the fragmentation as the biggest issue related to the O&G development. To me, the biggest issue is not the direct impact of fragmentation, but the induced impact of altered fire management in developed O&G areas. Fragmentation can be mitigated to an extent through passage zones, changes in pad density, road recovery practices, and buffers around leks. However, wildfire management is a much bigger issue. Healthy sage steppe is fire dependent, and needs a fire interval of about 15-20 years to really work. So fire needs to be a regular part of the sage environments. But with billions of dollars of O&G assets out there, and assets that will turn into a blow torch, do you really think the FS and BLM are going to "let it burn"? Not a chance. And without regular fire, you don't get multiple age class plants, resulting in a mono-age situation. This is DEVASTATING to mule deer, pronghorn, sage grouse, any any other critter than depends on the sage environment to thrive.

And this leads to the land grab issue. BLM and the FS can let a few thousand acres burn here and there every year. It is good for the entire system when that happens. But it only works when whole valleys, mountains, or watersheds can be viewed in context. If that is subdivided into 5, 20, 100, even 1,000 acre parcels for the selling, each of those buyers cannot afford to let those acres burn. The land can no longer be managed in a larger context, but each owner of the 1,000 acre parcel must look out for their own. And any kind of remaining eco-context is completely lost.

And it is that kind of habitat loss/fragmentation/transformation that IS happening now, that causes those that want to stop it, to push for invoking the ESA in some attempt to stop it. It isn't about the sage grouse right now. It is about seeing what we are doing on a larger scale and saying "holy crap. What are we doing to ourselves?"

I think as generally politically conservative outdoorsmen types, we are in an interesting spot. The party that backs less government, our right to carry guns, and private property rights is also the party that chants "drill baby drill". While the party that tends towards greater environmental protections leans towards increased government control of everything from our guns to our 4wd trucks. As an outdoorsman, I feel like a political refugee.

Which leads me to ask the question - anyone want to re-ignite TR's Bull Moose Party?
Gary, you are a smart guy. You capture my sentiments exactly. I'm a pretty apolitical person and I can't stand all the political grandstanding by politicians and conservation (or so-called hunting) groups. Many just toe the party line (and you all know who I am referring to), regardless of whether it is in the best interest of hunters or wildlife.
 

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I think as generally politically conservative outdoorsmen types, we are in an interesting spot. The party that backs less government, our right to carry guns, and private property rights is also the party that chants "drill baby drill" (and the land grab). While the party that tends towards greater environmental protections leans towards increased government control of everything from our guns to our 4wd trucks. As an outdoorsman, I feel like a political refugee.

Which leads me to ask the question - anyone want to re-ignite TR's Bull Moose Party?
Word! I couldn't describe my current political sentiments any better.
 

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TS30 does bring up an excellent point though. ESA listing of the sage grouse would be devastating to the oil and gas industries that are drilling in sage steppe environments. However, these are also, or were, great mule deer habitats. The revenue loss of $20 billion I don't doubt, but I do doubt the 200,000 jobs. There certainly are NOT 200,000 O&G jobs in Utah right now. In fact, since the Saudis dropped the price of crude, several of my friends that have been employed out in the Basin in the O&G industry have been laid off. It is part of a boom/bust cycle of that industry. The big boom in North Dakota has leveled off and jobs are leaving as quick as they came to that part of the country.

But the sage grouse are just the poster child for the sage ecosystems. Populations have and will continue to fluctuate along with drought cycles and fire practices in sage communities. It always has been, and always will be. But seeing entire swaths of land (think the Jona and Anticline Fields outside of Pinedale, WY or out in the Uinta Basin) are eaten up in basically one continuous drill pad - and that is why wildland advocates are looking for something to curtail that kind of habitat transformation. The assertion of habitat fragmentation due to the web of roads is pretty hard to refute, even for the biggest critics.

To me though, I don't see the fragmentation as the biggest issue related to the O&G development. To me, the biggest issue is not the direct impact of fragmentation, but the induced impact of altered fire management in developed O&G areas. Fragmentation can be mitigated to an extent through passage zones, changes in pad density, road recovery practices, and buffers around leks. However, wildfire management is a much bigger issue. Healthy sage steppe is fire dependent, and needs a fire interval of about 15-20 years to really work. So fire needs to be a regular part of the sage environments. But with billions of dollars of O&G assets out there, and assets that will turn into a blow torch, do you really think the FS and BLM are going to "let it burn"? Not a chance. And without regular fire, you don't get multiple age class plants, resulting in a mono-age situation. This is DEVASTATING to mule deer, pronghorn, sage grouse, any any other critter than depends on the sage environment to thrive.

And this leads to the land grab issue. BLM and the FS can let a few thousand acres burn here and there every year. It is good for the entire system when that happens. But it only works when whole valleys, mountains, or watersheds can be viewed in context. If that is subdivided into 5, 20, 100, even 1,000 acre parcels for the selling, each of those buyers cannot afford to let those acres burn. The land can no longer be managed in a larger context, but each owner of the 1,000 acre parcel must look out for their own. And any kind of remaining eco-context is completely lost.

And it is that kind of habitat loss/fragmentation/transformation that IS happening now, that causes those that want to stop it, to push for invoking the ESA in some attempt to stop it. It isn't about the sage grouse right now. It is about seeing what we are doing on a larger scale and saying "holy crap. What are we doing to ourselves?"

I think as generally politically conservative outdoorsmen types, we are in an interesting spot. The party that backs less government, our right to carry guns, and private property rights is also the party that chants "drill baby drill". While the party that tends towards greater environmental protections leans towards increased government control of everything from our guns to our 4wd trucks. As an outdoorsman, I feel like a political refugee.

Which leads me to ask the question - anyone want to re-ignite TR's Bull Moose Party?
Good post Mr. fish, sums it up nicely for me as well...
 
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