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I started this thread on the MM Forum, but I thought I'd present it here to some more civil minds for a different perspective.

At this last Wildlife Board meeting the DWR proposed a "temporary" 10 permit increase to study, and hopefully cure, the cause of the cactus antler malformations on the Pauns. The hunters will pay $80 for the permit and will be accompanied by either a DWR employee or an Alton CWMU person who will decide which buck will be taken. The hunter will provide samples for the study (blood, tissue, hair, sperm, urine, stool, velvet, etc.), but will get to keep the animal otherwise. The hunters will be selected from the depredation hunt pool.

What say you? I'll answer what questions I can, but I don't know any more about this than those of you who listened to the meeting. However, I can speculate as well as any of you, and I do have a tainted opinion as usual.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
The hunter will provide the samples from the deer, right... ? Not sure I'm ready to poop and "donate" into a cup in order to shoot a deer with messed up balls...
Oops! Sometimes my English ain't so comprehensativel! Yes, they're from the deer. However, maybe you'd be more interested in donating your sperm depending on how you'd have to do it? :grin:
 

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I think I'd rather see it as an option in the regular draw, so it could spread out the competition for tags. It sounds like it's pretty much a guided hunt for a buck with some pretty cool antlers, so I'm sure it would attract a lot of interest.

I like the premise behind it. I think it's worth looking into the causes of antler deformation, and if it's related to other health problems.
 

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Oops! Sometimes my English ain't so comprehensativel! Yes, they're from the deer. However, maybe you'd be more interested in donating your sperm depending on how you'd have to do it? :grin:
Lol, couldn't help myself... And yeah it's 2016, so no judgment here, but as long as colorcountrygunner and his twinks got nothing to do with the donation....

Err, right, uh, deer hunting. Yup. <Belch, scratch>
 

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The PAUNS is full of Cactus bucks, I think it's a lot more than just genetics. Here is an example...

Demise of a big ole buck, top 2 photos are from 2013, he also has a hooked cheater off his right side that can't be seen in trail cam photos. Bottom left is 2014 pic and bottom right is 2015 from last week. What the heck happened to this cool buck in your opinion? He did not or does not shed all of his antlers, but about 1/2 of them from the 2014 year fell off the top or shed and them some grows back from what's left or remaining from previous years. 2015 year he lost almost 3/4 of his horns. What a bummer. &#128078;&#127996;&#128078;&#127996; I think he might have lost his reproductive parts on a fence? Just a thought though not sure.

 

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The PAUNS is full of Cactus bucks, I think it's a lot more than just genetics. Here is an example...

Demise of a big ole buck, top 2 photos are from 2013, he also has a hooked cheater off his right side that can't be seen in trail cam photos. Bottom left is 2014 pic and bottom right is 2015 from last week. What the heck happened to this cool buck in your opinion? He did not or does not shed all of his antlers, but about 1/2 of them from the 2014 year fell off the top or shed and them some grows back from what's left or remaining from previous years. 2015 year he lost almost 3/4 of his horns. What a bummer. &#128078;&#127996;&#128078;&#127996; I think he might have lost his reproductive parts on a fence? Just a thought though not sure.

Lonetree who doesn't seem to frequent here as much anymore has some decent ideas on the issue. It is not his junk got caught in a fence it is that exposure to pesticides used in habitat treatments affect the endocrine system a great deal, which would explain why he has no, or disformed testicles. As you look deeper into it, exposure to what is used inhabitant treatments to prevent noxious weeds like cheatgrass from growing makes a lot of sense that if it's being consumed by our deer and elk, it will have negative affects on them. Here is some information if you are interested in researching this point of view

http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/malhuer_or_deer/
http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/13-hotchkiss-co/
http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/14-paunsaugunt-ut/
http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/1-hanford-wa/
http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/25-stansbury-mountains-ut/
 

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If its pesticides related the same phenomenon would be occurring all over Utah since pesticides are used all over the state. When a problem is localized the chances are very high that it's genetic or due to some localized environmental factor.
 

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If its pesticides related the same phenomenon would be occurring all over Utah since pesticides are used all over the state. When a problem is localized the chances are very high that it's genetic or due to some localized environmental factor.
Im not saying it's a one size fits all answer. I'm saying if you don't believe pesticides with toxic chemicals in them aren't going to have affects on wildlife, then you're in denial. Lonetree doesn't convey his point in a friendly way, but much of his information is useful to look at and is much more science based than many others I've heard. Cactus Bucks aren't localized and are found throughout the entire state and beyond.
 

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If its pesticides related the same phenomenon would be occurring all over Utah since pesticides are used all over the state. When a problem is localized the chances are very high that it's genetic or due to some localized environmental factor.
It is happening all over the West, not just Utah. It plays out differently depending on what area you are looking at, and what pesticides are being used. It then also depends on whether the conditions related to antlers are congenital or brought on later in life by said exposure.

And it is not "genetics" per se, it is epigenetics, read here: https://deerlab.org/Publ/pdfs/48.pdf We have learned allot since that was written. Cervid antlers are the quintessence of epigenetic expression.

Cactus bucks and crazy antlers are just the extreme end of the spectrum of what is going on. Simple asymmetry of a 3x4 typically is an indicator of some sort of epigentic disruption. In one animal it is just that, a single disruption, but when you see it over and over again in multiple animals, clustered around pesticide application, there is more to it.

An example beyond antlers: http://rutalocura.com/deer3.html The fawn at the bottom of that page has a multitude of issues, and if it had survived it would have had abnormal antlers. But beyond the antlers and lack of teste descent, that fawn has mandibular mesiocclusion(class III), a cleft palate, and a specific genetic abnormality of hair growth(not mentioned on the page). All three of those malformations are specific to, and associated with the disruption of one single gene(Foxe1), and taken together would constitute a very specific endocrinological diagnosis in a human known as Bamforth-Lazarus syndrome. This syndrome is defined by thyroid dysgenesis. That fawn was was hit on road that is treated with lots and lots of 2,4-D, which just happens to target the thyroid specifically. And it is not just highways, here is what happens on most FS and BLM dirt roads: http://rutalocura.com/wridge

Well the same disrupted epigenetic pathways that lead to null Foxe1 genetics, are the same ones at play when it comes to antler abnormalities. Here are some examples of how that looks, and some of the underlying pathways: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/antlers/

I can show you a very direct path from the application of glyphosate and/or 2,4-D that leads to these genetic disruptions. They both activate and disrupt some of the same epigenetic pathways but via different routes. This is one of the reasons we see differences from area to area, depending on what is used, and when it is used. Which accounts for the specifics of the timing and the pathways activated by the specific compounds.

And guess what else you see with all these other things? Copper and selenium deficiencies. That is because depending on the pathway being influenced, you disrupt specific groups of genes that are zinc(copper and zinc are biochemically inseparable) and selenium specific. Some compounds are more specif to one or another of these, but some can influence both. Either glyphosate or 2,4-D can induce a selenium deficiency by disruption and knock out of Dio genes, which are both genes and selenoprotiens. Activation of Gli genes(zinc finger structures) involved in copper deficiencies is not elucidated quite as well, but is easy to see in the same way that selenium response disorders associated with Dio disruptions are, and that is by the response of supplementation: http://www.jnutbio.com/article/S0955-2863(15)00108-4/fulltext The readers digest version being that copper supplementation has a positive affect on Gli genes, and conversely exposure to several pesticides has a negative affect.
 

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What are the specifics of the proposed Pauns study? Without the right reference information it may be difficult to ascertain anything valuable ie. anything that could bring change. Which I hate to say, seems to almost be the goal some times.

the Pauns is a good place to start, you have a few specific phenotypes, and it is pretty localized.

But depending on what you are trying to find out, you need to have a good plan in place. The specifics of Pauns cactus bucks has changed over the years. You use to see very specific cases like this buck: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/maxresdefault.jpg In this case you are looking at some very specific epigenetic expression and epigenetic patterning. Where as much of what I have been seeing lately, like what has been posted on this thread, is probably the result of very related issues, but by different pathways.

When you are looking at abnormal antler growth, you have to classify it into at least three distinct categories. 1) Congenital via sex differentiating genes such as Sox9. 2) Congenital via endocrinological disruption, such as Shh disruption, which is just more nuanced and direct from the first type. and 3) exposure later in life which tends to express via simple testicular atrophy. Regardless, these all influence the Ihh gene/s that pattern antlers.

The specifics of this matter because it can tell you what you are looking for, if you don't already know. One of the differences between the congenital varieties is whether or not you are looking at sex determining genes(patterning) or more basic endocrinological disruption where something like an estrogenic mimic has simply disrupted morphogenesis. An example of what estrogenic disruption can look like would be cryptorchidism, like what is seen in Kodiak island black tailed: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/kodiak/ Although this case upon further review with the researcher has a greater epigentic component, the abnormal antlers are caused by the cryptorchidism and associated testicular issues ie. testosterone. Where as congenital cases that involve sex determining genes and activation of hedge hog genes can express very similarly in antlers, but have different underlying etiologies. Specifically the testicles are not cryptorchid, but rather "misaligned"(genetically mispattened) with varying degrees of other reproductive organ malformation, such as very short penises and misplaced nipples. Because of the association of other very related genes and epigenetic pathways, you many times see allot of asymmetric antler and testicular development. This can get complicated when you see the same sort of thing with bilateral cyrptorchidism, which may be more related to these later malformations of sex determining genes I am explaining right now, that look more like the deer at the top of the page here: http://rutalocura.com/deer3

Then you have things like testicular atrophy, which can be brought on later in life via pesticide exposure. There is no genetic component here, but the way this may play out in antler development, may look very much like the antler dysgenesis expressed by deer with congenital abnormalities.

Different compounds, used at different times, and in different combinations, dictate how this plays out. Which is important if you are looking to actually fix this.

Regardless, all of these can be caused by pesticide exposure, or other estrogenic compounds(You show me what those are). The Pauns intrigues me because I have not zeroed in on the source. I found it for Kodiak island, and several other places, I am running much of it down in Yellowstone right now. Just a preview: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/yellowstone/
 

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I know I was one of the less civilized minds from MM, but I will ask the same question here, WHY? The cactus headed bucks on the Pauns are nothing new, not a new phenomenom, not some explosion of a freak population. As long as I can remember, (42) the cactus heads have been coming off this unit. So again I ask WHY? If this was a study being conducted by private individuals, or by the local outfitters, then great, it would possibly answer "i wonder why" questions. However, given the fact that the DWR is so underfunded, why are they wasting a single dollar on something that isn't a problem? Science for science sake is interesting, but the DWR isn't a research entity, its a management entity, and as such it has to maximize its money. Spending money, on a tiny population, on a tiny portion of the state, for something that isn't affecting anything but antler growth, IMO is a complete waste of the taxpayers money. The question trying to be answered will lead to nothing, other than answering curiousity questions. THe Dwr doesn't spend money(I hope) investigated Bigfoot, or chupacabra. So again, WHY?
 

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While LT's study's are interesting , and have my attention,
I wonder the same thing.

I was on the Paunsy in the late 80's early 90's,
The 'cactus' bucks were there then!

Nothing new about them being there now.
 
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While LT's study's are interesting , and have my attention,
I wonder the same thing.

I was on the Paunsy in the late 80's early 90's,
The 'cactus' bucks were there then!

Nothing new about them being there now.
Bingo....give the man a ceeeeegar. As Doug Deming says, without data it's simply you're opinion. I will stand by my original post, dollars to donuts it's genetic.
 

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Bingo....give the man a ceeeeegar. As Doug Deming says, without data it's simply you're opinion. I will stand by my original post, dollars to donuts it's genetic.
Until you can say which genes, you have nothing. Name me one single gene that you think is involved. I have been hearing the "genetics" stuff for years, just tossing around the term genetic does not get us anymore deer, or fix anything.

Here is but a few of the genes involved in the epigenetics of all of this: http://rutalocura.com/images/Glyph-genes.jpg

Name me just one other gene that is involved in these "genetics" I keep hearing about.
 

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I know I was one of the less civilized minds from MM, but I will ask the same question here, WHY? The cactus headed bucks on the Pauns are nothing new, not a new phenomenom, not some explosion of a freak population. As long as I can remember, (42) the cactus heads have been coming off this unit. So again I ask WHY? If this was a study being conducted by private individuals, or by the local outfitters, then great, it would possibly answer "i wonder why" questions. However, given the fact that the DWR is so underfunded, why are they wasting a single dollar on something that isn't a problem? Science for science sake is interesting, but the DWR isn't a research entity, its a management entity, and as such it has to maximize its money. Spending money, on a tiny population, on a tiny portion of the state, for something that isn't affecting anything but antler growth, IMO is a complete waste of the taxpayers money. The question trying to be answered will lead to nothing, other than answering curiousity questions. THe Dwr doesn't spend money(I hope) investigated Bigfoot, or chupacabra. So again, WHY?
WHY? Because we can't "manage" what we don't know and understand, which is why the last 20 years have gone the way that they have. We don't know what makes deer numbers go up and down, therefor we can't "manage" those effects up or down. This is why we have done nothing but driven population numbers and hunter numbers down over the last 4 decades.

This is one of those things that drives those trends, so if you understand the who, what, where, when, and why of it, then you can "manage" it. Otherwise we are just pissing in shifting winds.
 

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While LT's study's are interesting , and have my attention,
I wonder the same thing.

I was on the Paunsy in the late 80's early 90's,
The 'cactus' bucks were there then!

Nothing new about them being there now.
Same goes for the blacktailed deer on Kodiak island, same thing for the last 20 years, nothing new, same old cactus bucks and low populations.

The same can be said for many places, and there is a reason why. We quit doing real meaningful wildlife science that produced game and hunters. If you want to change the later, you have to fix the underlying conditions that dictate this.

To do that, you have to understand the science that is driving our population trends. We can manage hunters all we want, in the end it does nothing to get us more wildlife or more tags. That can only come about one way...........
 

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I also question the Why. To what end will this research serve?

You won't get herbicide use banned on every road and right of way, should it prove to be the cause and you won't be able to administer a vaccine type "cure" to every animal showing symptoms.

Abnormalities and mutations occur in all species across the globe to varying extents, not everything needs to be known nor "fixed" in this world.

Some things just are.
 
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