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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

The constitution affords us the right to bear arms. There will always be guns! Pit bulls are not mentioned in the constitution. They can and should be regulated (eradicated). Would we let our community raise pit vipers, lions, rattlesnakes. The answer to that is a resounding NO. I would support a ban on pit bulls in cities. So the comparison of guns to dogs is moot. It's like comparing a surgeons scalpel to guns to dogs. One is made for cutting human flesh the other two are made for killing. I see one on my street. I will assume that I am protecting my community and swiftly dispatch it!!!!
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

Plus a gun can't come to life and decide of its own volition to shoot somebody. I agree that the comparison doesn't work.
One might argue that training can remove aggression in a dog and while that's true, training cannot remove genetics. Fighting breeds have it in their DNA to never let go once they've bitten. Other breeds might bite, but they'll let go and back off if you fight back. You will only be removing your hand from a pit bull's mouth when the dog is dead and cold.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

Police say the mother was giving the boy medicine, and when she turned around, the dog attacked the boy.

The mother was able to get the dog off the boy and took him to the hospital.

The boy underwent surgery at Primary Children's Medical Center. The 10-month old pit bull will now be put down.
But they're such great loyal family dogs! :? :evil:
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

TEX-O-BOB said:
Police say the mother was giving the boy medicine, and when she turned around, the dog attacked the boy.

The mother was able to get the dog off the boy and took him to the hospital.

The boy underwent surgery at Primary Children's Medical Center. The 10-month old pit bull will now be put down.
But they're such great loyal family dogs! :? :evil:
The boy probably pulled a knife on his mom so the dog was protecting the mom. ;)
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

i worked a dogman's yard before matching was outlawed. i'm sure i've handled more pit bulldogs than everybody on this forum. never had a one so much as growl at me. i've owned, worked or handled over 300 dogs in my life mostly cur dogs, birddogs & bulldogs. i've been tagged by a few dogs but never a "pitbull." in fact, overwhelmingly most of the old dogmen culled manbiters. a manbiter had to be freak of nature good in the box to be breathing and 10X better than that to be bred.

i strongly reccommend you tuff guys not be shooting peoples dogs, especially since most people (including vets & animal control) can't properly ID a real pit bulldog. you may wind up shooting someones showdog and losing the resulting lawsuit (along w/your house).
or it may belong to someone that is a bigger [email protected]$$ and they might do something even dumber, since the majority of the crossbred trash people call pitbulls is owned by a lot of wannabe thugs.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

Generalizations about canine behavior are difficult to defend. There is always the exception. With that said I will make a generalization, and ask you to use your experience to help us all.

For a dog to termed a "manbiter" it would have had to at least bitten one person. I quess there could be behaviors that would indicate a biter without actual contact. In the arena you describe, that person would most likely have been an accomplished hander, with probably extensive experience, rather than a child. Either way the dog gets one bite before being determined to be a "manbiter".

Here is the generalization. From what I have read and seen that first bite involving pit bulldogs, as you call them, is often very serious in nature. Life changing in many cases, fatal in others, but very often requiring major medical intervention. Often the attacks are on other dogs, or triggered by the presence of other dogs.

Pop2 - With your experience with the breed. And understanding that a very calm and playful pit bulldog can go from zero bites to a fatality in a moments time. Leaving the owner to describe the dog as a great family dog that plays with his children and is loved by all of the neighborhood to the reporter handling the story.

What limitations of ownership should be placed on the breed and their owners to protect other people and dogs, and of course the owners.

Please don't give the standard answer of any dog could do the same, we should be regulating all breeds in the same manner. We have all heard it and it doesn't hold water and to be very frank. It isn't working. Most people are tired of hearing that line of discussion, and the serious bites just keep on coming. I'm truely asking for your help. Not the rehetoric that has been put forth over and over.

What can be done, based on your extensive experience.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

Mrs Goob and I have a pit bull:



sorry, I just can't help myself.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

goob, that pit bull on the right isn't worth spit!
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

proutdoors said:
goob, that pit bull on the right isn't worth spit!
:D
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

i would give the same requirements i would for any breed one unprovoked or unjustified (defense of owner & property from adult) bite and they go down. as for restricting ownership, there is only one i would support based on firm constitutional beliefs in property rights (same reason i wouldn't tell people what kind of cars or guns they can own). anyone convicted of a felony & 3 violent misdemeanors would not be allowed to own, posses or reside with ANY dog 30# or larger.
one of the big problems w/ the junk everyone thinks of as "pitbulls" is that much of the most popular stuff is crossbred junk that was crossed w/ the worst possible breeds. almost universally the breeds crossed into these large dogs was developed for man work like neapolitan mastiff & bullmastiff. this means that the genes for lowered bite inhibition were introduced & and now being scatterbred by nimrods who aren't competant to own a goldfish. the end result is two perfectly good dogs produce a pup or two w/ no inhibition against biting people or worse nervebag fear biters. additionally there are several health reasons why dogs may lash out violently & unnexpectedly including brain cancer/injury & "mental illness."
the hysteria always happens when a particularly hard style of dog becomes popular resulting in a boom in poor breeding & widespread incompetant ownership. in the early 60s it was german sheperds, in the 70s dobermans, and believe it or not there was an issue w/ airedales before WWII. the root cause is popularity w/the wrong kind of owner, all of which (for the "pit bull") goes back to the HSUS & the lies they spread to get fighting banned. before it was outlawed 90% of the breed was owned by old fashioned dogmen. most of the dogs not owned by them were cold dogs that belonged to friends, neighbors & relatives.
another issue is that many of the dogs IDed as "pit bulls" don't have a drop of pit bulldog blood in them.
the netherlands banned pit bulls in the 80s and just repealed the ban because they found that their fatalities didn't drop just which breed caused them changed. the brits likewise had one of their houses vote to repeal their breed ban for the same reason and because they couldn't be positively IDed not even by genetic testing. there isn't a genetic database ANYWHERE in the world capable of identifying a dogs breed. all they can do right now is prove relationship.
ultimately it is a complex issue w/ no simple answer. a part most people miss is that dogs (ALL breeds) only kill 20-30 people a year at most compared to 100-200 killed every year by deer. and no breed is immune to causing a fatality. please don't think i am dismissing the tragedy of the people killed, but from a "public safety" standpoint there are a thousand different issues we should be more worried about.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

Pops2, finally another voice of reason. It is good to hear from someone else with knowledge of dogs.[ dogmen refer to other breeds as curs] Most people think of Mke Vick types when they hear the term "Pit Bull". They don't realize that dogs were more prized for being game, Than winning. Dogmen bred for courage.And didn't hang or electrocute loosing dogs. This is one of the things it is easy to jump on a band wagon with the media. It is a tactic that animal rights groups and gun control groups use to divide us. I don't own assault weapons or pits but I do support your RIGHT to own them. If you abuse this right then you should be held acountable. Outlawing pits is the first step in a slippery slope. Vic

P.S. if they aren't over 30# they aren't dogs 8)
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

ZEKESMAN said:
P.S. if they aren't over 30# they aren't dogs 8)
Vic i will have to disagree w/ that. i have an aquaintance in IA that has patterdales. his 14# gyp has killed 20# ***** by herself. his 21 & 27# dogs and hi 28# pitXpat gyp, all have locked jaws w/ coyotes in drain pipes & brush piles and pulled them out by sheer force for his stags &/or foxhounds to finish off. they are most definitley dogs.
OTH my SIL has a pug that while funny & way more active than most, definitely falls into that not a real dog catergory.

mike vick, now there is a waste of skin. his old man should have settled for a BJ that night.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

If you can kick it over a fence, it ain't a dog. :twisted: That's my rule anyway.

There's way too many dog owners that don't have a clue what they're doing, whether its a toy poodle or a pit bull or a Doberman. I'm not sure what the answer is, but the banning of breeds doesn't sound right to me. That's awful close to banning guns, or many other things that "may" be dangerous. Too slippery a slope for me.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

The information has been very helpful and I appreaciate the thoughtful nature and insight it has revealed and inspired. If I could trouble you with a couple of more questions:

How do you hold people accountable in a way that prevents the serious bites? Insurance, fines, criminal charges don't stop the bite, but rather are steps in compensation. I woud rather not have the bite occur in the first place.

If you use a criminal charge as your hammer, at what level do you punish. Most of the DUI accidents I'm aware of cause tremendously less injury than the last few bites I have seen.

Are we as citizens willing to house and feed inadequate dog owners in jail to try and prevent bites? Or are we willing to give up some of our freedom to prevent a child from getting bite?

Individually it is very difficutl question, across the spectrum of what we call society. It is nearly impossible, but try telling that to a mother that is looking down at a child with its face missing.

The thought process is very similar to firearms and certain types of weapons. I had not seen the parallel nature of the two discussions. Whoever it was that pointed this out thank you.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

I don't think I entirely disagree.
My concern with Pits has always been to my easy going wouldn't pick a fight with anything not feathered bird dog or Grandmas teacup poodle. I see it like this...We breed pointing dogs to point and they do that. Even in dogs that have been bred down, and been nothing but pets or show dogs throw a pup that points now and then. So a dog bred to fight even way back would probably throw that trait in at least some pups. I don't have a use for dog fighting, or chicken fighting for that matter. Nothing gentlemanly about it if you ask me.

And there is a DNA Database with the FDSB to ID Llewellyn setters. Every Llew must be DNA tested to be registered now days. I don't know if there are others but perhaps there should be.

I think there are plenty of good breeds that do not exhibit or very rarely exhibit this kind of aggressive behavior for someone in their right mind to choose a pit, but its a free country to each his own....Most of the time these days with pits it is about looking like a bad ass Lets face it even if two teacups get into it a little bit you pull them apart and usually no real harm done. (I just used teacups as an example.)

I think you get it Pops, and agree with most everything you said. I think 20 -30 people is to many though. I just wanted to add my .02 cents
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

Bret
that is a widespread misconception, if fighting another animal made dogs likely to attack & kill people, coonhounds would kill hundreds of people every year. BUT they don't. "pit bulls" don't cause all 20-30 only 4-6 (which is still too many especially if one of those killed affects you personally). the rest are caused by a variety of breeds including such unlikely candidates as yorkies, poodles, weiner dogs, labs, goldens & beagles. ultimately the only way to prevent any dog related fatalities is to extinct ALL dogs regardless of breed. that just isn't a realistic option since they actually do jobs that cannot reasonably be done any other way.
i'll say it again. i handled the dogs back before matching was banned in the whole country. i worked more pit bulldogs than probably everybody on this board has seen in their whole life. i pulled apart dogs in training rolls. i held dogs while they got stapled, stitched & bones set and never once got bit (done this w/ hunting dogs too and got a few nips). the most bites i ever got was from my mom's little poodles (which also stretched a few stray cats in their day).
would i like to see the breed less poular and only kept by people who know what they're doing, ABSOfreakingLUTELY. do i want to make a law saying so, absolutely no way in hell.
if people really want to save lives, ban cars, ban booze, ban deer, ban lightning, & ban bees because all of them kill at least 10X-10,000X the # of people killed by "pit bulls." and 99.% are preventable deaths even w/o banning these things.
so yeah i get it. it's easier to start a crusade against a genuinely minor problem than to attack real threats. and the situation occurs because people don't want to accept responsibility for their own failures and so would rather throw their neighbors freedom under the bus for a false sense of security. in that regard it absolutely is identical to the gun rights issue.
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

I don't think I mentioned much in my post about K-9 v people attacks I just wanted to bring up the increased likely hood of Pit on K-9 attacks as well as the seriousness of those attacks in comparison to say a Britt and a setter getting into it a little. Or grandmas Tea cup like I mentioned earlier.
I think that is where the instinct comes in. They have been bred to fight other dogs there is no tendency toward K-9 aggression?
 

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Re: pitbulls... Waist of skin

Bret
you are absolutely right about that. even w/ the cold dogs used for dog shows, once in a while a game dog pops up that wants to tangle w/ other dogs more than anything. my personal feeling are that anyone that owns any sort of bull, mastiff or terrier breed should keep on hand & know how to use a breakstick.
at the same time i've seen hounds & curs kill each other. sled dog breeds are also notorious for deadly fights w/ other dogs. heck some of my moms poodles liked to pick fights and a couple would have ended real bad if i hadn't stopped them. just like people bites, the only way to prevent any dog fights is to extinct all dogs.
 
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