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Would you support a ban on bear baiting and hounding, so the state can issue more permits?

  • ban bait and hounds, offer more permits

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would love to carry a Black bear tag in Utah if the oppurtunity ever arised for a stalk and shoot hunt. I would not however bait in an animal to shoot, just doesn't sit right with the reasons I go out to hunt to begin with. I envy my Montana friends who can buy their yearly bear tags over the counter, and have that option if the option arises. Perhaps if Utah banned bait and hounds, lowering success rates, more permits(oppurtunity for you and I) could be offered.
What do you think?
 

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I think they should have a waiting list, and allow hunters to hunt nuisance bears. Baiting and hounds are fine. Both require a lot of work, and dedication.
 

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I don't trap, but "if we don't all hang together, we will all hang separately."
I may try trapping someday.
 

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blackbear said:
I would love to carry a Black bear tag in Utah if the oppurtunity ever arised for a stalk and shoot hunt. I would not however bait in an animal to shoot, just doesn't sit right with the reasons I go out to hunt to begin with. I envy my Montana friends who can buy their yearly bear tags over the counter, and have that option if the option arises. Perhaps if Utah banned bait and hounds, lowering success rates, more permits(oppurtunity for you and I) could be offered.
What do you think?
You have the opportunity now to spot and stalk if you chose to do so and you can be successful doing so. I believe the limit on bear tags currently has more to do with politics then bear numbers. Look at the tree huggers response to the division increasing the number of permits by 15 tags this year. The tree huggers act as if the black bear is a endangered species instead of a population that is thriving and increasing each year (which they are).
 

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tnokes said:
I think they should have a waiting list, and allow hunters to hunt nuisance bears. Baiting and hounds are fine. Both require a lot of work, and dedication.
I agree 100%. We had this exact conversation on New Years Eve with some friends. They have a sister in law who works for the DWR. She told them the state put down 100+ bears last year. I suggested the waiting list, with the knowledge you drop everything and go at a minutes notice. I do realize there could be a lot of issues that go along with this on the negative side. I would like to see a change as well.

BugBuilder
 

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I voted leave the regs as they are.

As for the bears being put down by the DWR, those are "nuisance" bears which means they've been in close proximity with people and many of them have to be dealt with descretely. The general public wants Yogi and Booboo to be removed or scared away or something. They don't understand the need to kill them. So to allow public hunters to go after those bears without sufficient training would only stir up public sentiment with the very real possibility that bear hunting could once again be banned entirely as it was not all that long ago.
 

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Allowing sportsmen to take nuisance bears is an idea that has been discussed frequently and most officials are in favor of it publicly. However, there are some draw backs. First, the window of opportunity for taking these nuisance bear is often small and it takes time for the DWR to run down the list of prospective hunters and get one mobilized to take the bear. By the time the hunter gets there and gets into position, the opportunity may have already passed.

Second, the hunting and shooting skills of the average sport hunter is generally not on the same level of ADC hunters(government hunters) or other DWR employees that deal with problem animals on a regular basis. Sometimes, the amount of effort required to get a problem animal into a position to taken is too great and you may not get a second chance. A DWR official is taking a risk relying on what may well be an inexperienced public hunter to close the deal for him.

And third, the majority of these problem bears are not the trophy boars most sport hunters dream about, but the young, smaller bears that aren't experienced enough to avoid humans. Talking to DWR officials, many fear that they could go to all the trouble to set up a public hunter only to have them refuse to take the bear because it's too small. When you weigh in all the negatives, it's not too surprising DWR officials choose to discretely handle these problem bears on their own.
 

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There are 3 different seasons for 3 different methods of deer and elk hunting, perhaps separate seasons for bear would be an option? Maybe do a hound/bait season, and a spot-stalk season as 2 separate things. Maybe have an archery season and have that be the only time when baiting is allowed. Just throwing some ideas around.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Surfer Yote,
Actually baiting is only allowed currently for archery hunters. Good idea on the spot/stalk season though. Come on folks, this has been viewed almost 300 times, and only 23 people have voted???
 

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Yeah, have it so that bear hunting suits the way you would like to hunt and screw everybody else! This is as big a dumbass thread as I've seen on here, split the hunters up, don't unite together to as one group!
 

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I don't mean to dog on age old traditions; but I'm sure it'll be taken this way-

Personally, I don't agree with dogs being used to chase anything but birds or vermin. In fact, one of my dream hunts is to chase a mountain lion with a bow, or possibly a black bear. Perhaps I'll do both- and it will definitely be spot and stalk. Can't think of anything more frustrating than having a pack of hounds run up on YOUR (unspooked) cat. It's happened to me before.
I voted for baiting, but no hounds. But, my take on baiting is a little different. The unit which I've drawn for bear is also where I bow hunt elk, and the bear season opens ten days after elk ends. See where I'm going with this?
I'm not sure I agree with 'purposeful' baiting any more than I would for geese or turkeys. Seems like the sort of junk that goes on on those high-dollar gamefarms with fences. BS!
But; a qualifier here- INCIDENTAL bait is fine with me. I'm drawing for my bear unit banking for the possibility of leaving an elk gut pile. See, if bears learn of a reliable source of feed, they adapt and continue to visit that source- be it a campsite or a trash can. They become 'problem' bears. Carcasses and gut piles are a little different. They're the natural way of things, and bears only utilize that particular resource until it's gone. So- say you shoot an elk, clean it, leave the gut pile and drag the elk out. Ten days later, there's nothing tastier to a bear than putrid carion. Why not hunt over that gut pile?
wether you spot and stalk or hunt over bait, there's the conceivabilitiy of inducing 'problem' behavior in a bear whether it's unwitting or not. But if one is to take advantage of the natural order of things we may be eevn more successful than otherwise predicted, without introducing a potentially harmful behavior. Besides- who else, aside from yourself, would know where your gutpile is? You'd have the woods to yourself!
 

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Unity is great. As long as you ALL AGREE WITH ME.
Dumb*ss.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I dont mean to single out any hunters by asking this question. Its just that the question of hunter oppurtunity comes up here often with deer and elk, so I wonder, why not bear? We manage the deer/elk heards by offering different weapon hunts, with shorter/longer seasons depending on success rate & # of permits.
I understand that many would find it threatening that their manner of hunting might be further regulated, but by having hounding with a very high success rate, it is decreasing my oppurtunity at drawing/carrying a yearly bear tag, knowing my odds with a spot/stalk, archery equipment are much slimmer.

So even if this year is the year I draw out, odds are I will never see a boar that I want to shoot anyways. Then i'll have to wait another 5 years or more........

No wonder dog owners dont want it changed, they are the ones getting the upperhand advantage in the current draw/managment system.
 

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I like your input black bear. I like the idea of being about to hunt bear using spot and stalk without worrying about the pressure from hunting with hounds. By no means am I trying to say that using hounds is wrong. That would be just like saying that I am an archery hunter and hunting deer or elk with a rifle is wrong. That's why we have an archery season for big game separate from the other ones, to give other methods the means to have a successful hunt. I've successfully hunted bear in Montana, where there is no method other than spot and stalk allowed. However, I am not suggesting that Utah become like Montana and ban all methods of bear hunting other than spot and stalk because the state would lose money and many hunters will be left not being able to practice their sport. I know a lot of people who don't apply for bear in Utah because the spot/stalk odds are so low, so they don't bother putting in or they go out of state. I think that having a spot and stalk season would raise more interest in bear hunting in Utah, and that's what a lot of people are really afraid of......more competition for tags.
 

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I have no disagreement with equaling out oppourtunity, it's just that some people would like it only a certain way to x out others methods of hunting.
 

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The poll isnt really that great because you can currently spot and stalk bears. Those who are in favor of the spot and stalk method; I have a question for you. Are you apply that the spot and stalk method is the "manly" way to hunt bear? What is the main reason to eliminate hunting bears with hounds? Hunting with hounds IS the most effective way to harvest bears and with the bear problems and the increase in the bear population then the DWR wants more bears harvested. The spot and stalk method wouldnt have a high enough success rate.

Why have a spilt season when they give out 10 plus tags in a huge area? Isnt there enough room for everyone to hunt at the same time?
 

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Singleshotman wrote:

Can't think of anything more frustrating than having a pack of hounds run up on YOUR (unspooked) cat. It's happened to me before.
Maybe you need to realize that you arent the ONLY hunter on the mountain.

But; a qualifier here- INCIDENTAL bait is fine with me. I'm drawing for my bear unit banking for the possibility of leaving an elk gut pile. See, if bears learn of a reliable source of feed, they adapt and continue to visit that source- be it a campsite or a trash can. They become 'problem' bears. Carcasses and gut piles are a little different. They're the natural way of things, and bears only utilize that particular resource until it's gone. So- say you shoot an elk, clean it, leave the gut pile and drag the elk out. Ten days later, there's nothing tastier to a bear than putrid carion. Why not hunt over that gut pile?
This baiting gut pile method wouldnt work in the spring unless you plan on poaching an elk.

I dont think you can use elk meat or its parts for baiting either.

(3) A person may use nongame fish as bait, except those listed as prohibited
in Utah Admin. Code R657-13 and the proclamation of the Wildlife Board for taking fish and crayfish. No other species of protected wildlife may be used as bait.
(4)(a) Domestic livestock or its parts, including processed meat scraps, may be used as bait.
(b) A person using domestic livestock or their parts for bait must have in possession:
(i) a certificate from a licensed veterinarian certifying that the domestic
livestock or their parts does not have a contagious disease, and stating the cause and date of death; and
(ii) a certificate of brand inspection or other proof of ownership or legal possession.
(5) Bait may not be placed within:
(a) 100 yards of water or a public road or designated trail; or
(b) 1/2 mile of any permanent dwelling or campground.
(6) Violations of this proclamation concerning baiting on federal lands may be a violation of federal regulations and prosecuted under federal law.
 

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Thanks for clarifying the 'incidental bait' regulations. Good thing I never actually hunted that way, just thought it was a good idea. might have gotten myself in trouble. :oops:
plus- the unit and area that I was drawing for, at the time, had a fall bear hunt as well- after archery elk. That was a couple of years ago and I haven't drawn out yet.

Dogs are certainly an effective method of controlling the population of potential problem bears- and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally, I prefer to go about it with my own eyes, ears, and tracking ability rather than have some other critter do it for me. It's not about population control, 'harvest success rate', or trophy potential- it's about quality of the hunt.
I guess I'll leave Utah to the rest of you guys- if I ever hunt black bear, it'll be out of state; where they have enough sense to at least separate the seasons.
 

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Personally I'm not against anyone hunting by whatever LEGAL method they choose. I may not choose to participate in that method myself, but by standing up against that method I'm just rotting away one more brick in the foundation of hunting sports, and personally I'd like for my grandkids to still be able to hunt when it's their time, SO KNOCK IT OFF AND GET ALONG! :D

But statistically speaking I thing that they could create more opportunity by creating several different seasons. I think that a spot and stalk only season early on when the bears first come out of hibernation and are more concentrated on grasses would be a good opportunity. I also think that they could issue a lot of permits during this opportunity. The reason I say that is that between the years of 2001 and 2006, a total of 1406 hunters took the field for bear, and using spot and stalk methods this netted a total of 23 bears. That's only a 1.6% success rate. Call me nuts but a few more permits here probably wouldn't hurt the balance at all.

I think they could then have a baiting only season, because to me it seems like if you put the food in the right place, a bear is gonna use it regardless of what time of the spring or summer it may be. The net harvest on bears during that same time period using bait was 50 bears (3.5 % success) Still not that effective of a method, simply because you still have to do the homework, get into an area with bears nearby and then do the work to maintain a bait station, and from what I understand 150 pounds of bait doesn't last long on an active site. I think they could afford to put more permits here as well.

Lastly the hunting over dogs method. I'm not sure where to suggest to put this season simply because I don't know if there are times that are better than others to chase bears with dogs. Although it seems like it would be relatively successful anytime you have active bears. But the bad news is that those who use this method have maintained a 26% success ratio during the 01-06 time period (362 bears). Let's face it, you guys are REALLY good at what you do. This particular area has obviously the heaviest impact on the opportunities. But at the same time I do strongly feel like the number of permits here have been and will continue to be based more upon public reaction and politics rather than what the population can really sustain. In this area, I think a little PR work and public education would go a long ways, because the way the general public view this form of hunting really is a far cry from how it really goes. I don't think they appreciate the amount of work going in to training much less then number of miles you need to be willing to chase a pack of dogs through rough county just to pull them off of the tree because the bear is too small or not what you want.


Either way, I'm in agreement that a 3 way season would create more opportunities for more people to take the field in this sport than we currently allow, and I'm sure that there would be a way to do it that would create a good balance. I think it just needs to be looked at carefully and see what makes sense.
 
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