[mr_sweeten]

I think this proposal may be on a decent track, but obviously has wrankled a few feathers. How 'bout a simpler approach with a bit of a compromise?

Perhaps the DWR would do well to manage all units with an eye toward quantity as well as quality.
Try this on for size-
Establish antler or point restrictions for general season. Those of us not concerned with trophies, but not all that inclined to pass one up, either, may be cool with shooting 3x3's 0r smallish 3x4's. Also alott LE tags that impose no restriction, usable during general season in the respective region (maybe with a three year waiting period?). Alott a subset of Prem LE tags that are trophy-only, late season- pre-rut or early rut.
In effect- us meat hunters can hunt where we've always hunted, but keep our 'trophy' standards low. Those of us whom are hard pressed to pass up a big boy, even though technically meat hunters, can take a shot at drawing the General season tag without the restriction. Trophy hunters, whom, frankly I'd rather not be in the same deer woods with in the first place, can have their monsters- at a time when they're most likely to see them anyway.
The herds, overall, benefit from better management. As a hunter, I get a rush just seeing mature bucks, regardless of whether I choose to put a bead on them or not. Just knowing they're OUT THERE is really where the fun is, isn't it?
For those of you who aren't familiar with the previous post, scroll back to Nov. 9 or so. "management idea".

 

[elk22hunter]

Forget all the other stuff I said, I don't want in on this one.

 

[wileywapati]

I Have always been pretty happy with the buy a tag and shoot the best buck you can find management plan.
Keep your points, width, and all of that other inch management B.S.

 

[mr_sweeten]

In my book, you (elk22) raise some fairly valid points which I had not considered. 'Beware the power of stupid people in large groups' right? Unfortunately, we can't regulate one's propensity toward dishonesty. Thanks for the critique.
As for the subsequent opinions, well-
Why should many of us be penalized by the greed of others? If we could be patient for a few years and excercise some restraint, then everyone could bag a 'wallhanger' if they were so inclined.
Personally, and mind you, this is MY opinion and have no inclination to reinforce it upon others-
I don't agree with tacking racks to the wall. I've bagged two 'decent' bucks as well as a couple of meat bucks in the last ten years. The antlers went to making a walking cane for my Grandpa, knife handles for my nephews when they made Eagle Scout, etc. It's a matter of respect for the game I chase. Sure, I took pictures which have gone into a photo album along with a record of my own personal and familial history. But everything gets used. Everything with a practical use, anyway. Well- I'm done with the soapbox oratory, but still very tired of my hunting opportunities being limited by the greed of others.

 

[proutdoors]

I am confused by the comment:

I'm still very tired of my hunting opportunities being limited by the greed of others.

What does that mean? I could say, " I'm still very tired of my trophy hunting opportunities being limited by the greed of others", and be just as accurate as you in my assessment. That is why I have the signature line, "Define, develop, and sustain both trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah." I believe we MUST provide BOTH, because there are MANY hunters in both camps, for one to suggest my wishes/desires are irrelevant sounds like "greed of others". If you desire to just 'meat' hunt, there are plenty of OTC opportunities to do so in Utah, if you desire to 'limit' yourself and be a very selective 'trophy' hunter, those opportunities are there as well, just not as many as for the 'meat' hunters. Yet, I see MORE 'meat' hunters complaining than 'trophy' hunters. Go figure. :?

In my younger days I harvested any/every legal animal I could, regardless of size/age. Now I am much more selective in what animals I harvest, which means MANY more animals live to be hunted/harvested by others, and yet I am accused of "being greedy", I don't get it. :|

 

[mr_sweeten]

I've never intended to attack another forum member directly, nor indirectly with a post- particularly you, PRO- I read your tag line every time you post, and I appreciate your forthright approach to the forum. I think that most people read a post, and latch onto one line they don't agree with and take it as a personal attack. The trouble is, opinions are like ***holes, and everyone's got one.
I make a dedicated point of not speaking out of my rear, with an eye toward accuracy to the best of my ability. Still, I find it odd that we quibble amongst eachother like a bunch of pre-pubescent schoolgirls. I thought that was a trait common only among the anti-hunting crowd, which is why I joined this forum; to get away from such b.s.
If my opinions are taken out of context, or present some glaring flaw which i may have missed, fine- fire away. I'm not attacking anyone's principles. Mine stray a GREAT deal from the norm, which I am fully aware.
My point here, is that I feel very frustrated when hunters; trophy, opportunistic, or meat, are portrayed in a bad light. Hunting is a privilege which I hold VERY sacred- and tacking a monster rack on the wall and displaying for the world to see just provides a very large target for the anti-crowd to shoot at. Some things perhaps should be kept to oneself. I don't see anyone showing off the color of their turds. Sure, a Trophy is quite an acheivement and records should be kept. But not flaunted in the faces of people whom come in second, third, or dead last. To me, it's just poor sportsmanship, and on a spiritual note, disrepectful to the animal. One could argue that a mount is a preservation of a memory. Well, isn't a picture 'worth a thousand words'?
My reasons for hunting are typically defended by science. It's hard to argue with scientific fact. But the deepest, and therefore most true, reasons I hunt are spiritual. It's not my place to impose such feelings upon anyone else- but I guard them with tooth and nail. Hunt as you may, but why not minimize the possibility of losing what we all hold near and dear by keeping it close to the vest?
I am never ashamed of killing an animal, unless done poorly. But I don't need to flaunt what I've taken, either.
No offense to anyone- just ME talking.

 

[ridgetops]

mr_sweeten, you've really lost me. A while back you post that you have started a guiding/outfitter service on myspace. Now your talking about how bad it is to trophy hunt. Good luck on that one. I can tell you that I mostly disagree with almost everything about your last post. If we continue to back down to the anti-hunters and are always worried about offending, then we will be alot closer to loosing the battle. IMHO.

 

[proutdoors]

Well- I'm done with the soapbox oratory, but still very tired of my hunting opportunities being limited by the greed of others.

I have yet to be 'offended' by anything you have said, I was pointing out the irony of your comments, nothing more. Your last post is the same, full of irony. You complain about the division among hunters, yet you are intentionally 'dividing' hunters but calling those who have different priorities/definitions than you "greedy". You can NOT complain if you part of the problem!

I do agree we as hunters need to be united, but that is an effort that must be made by ALL sides, not just the sides differing from yours/mine. Let's put our petty differences aside and work together. I am all for "more opportunity", but it MUST be balanced and have all types of hunters considered in the give and take. We can NOT have one side doing all the taking and the other all the giving, and that includes 'my side'. That is why my signature says BOTH, not either/or.

 

[proutdoors]

Hunting is a privilege which I hold VERY sacred- and tacking a monster rack on the wall and displaying for the world to see just provides a very large target for the anti-crowd to shoot at.

I somehow missed this the first read through. Are you kidding me? Hunters have been "tacking" harvested animals on the wall for hundreds of years, and I'll be damned if I will be ASHAMED of the animals which I have harvested that have molded me into who I am today! If the anti-crowd is gunning for us, it has NOTHING to do with Cabela's having animals on 'display', nor because I have a 360" bull elk on the wall in my living room. _(O)_

 

[coyoteslayer]

Do you really believe this Mr_Sweeten or are you just trying to stir the pot?

 

[coyoteslayer]

Trophy is quite an acheivement and records should be kept. But not flaunted in the faces of people whom come in second, third, or dead last. To me, it's just poor sportsmanship, and on a spiritual note, disrepectful to the animal. One could argue that a mount is a preservation of a memory. Well, isn't a picture 'worth a thousand words'?

Yes its true that pictures are worth a thousand words, but so is an animal mounted on the wall. Why are you so anti against taxidermy animals? Why would it even be considered poor sportsmanship or disrepectful to the animals?

 

[mr_sweeten]

I'm not absolutlely sure I can anwer that adequately-
For some reason, seeing a mount makes my blood boil, but not in anger; just sadness. Strictly in sentimentality. I don't suppose it makes a great deal of sense. Again, something I haven't quite figured out- but it does provoke a negative physiological response. I'm not going get on a 'circle of life' kick and preach a bunch of mumbo jumbo. But, I do feel that what is used, then returned to earth in one way or another, directly, (rather than indirectly in the case of a mount) perpetuates the balance which is in constant struggle of disarray and disruption due to our own, Mankind's, disregard and perpetual need to take and take.
As far as the spiritual aspect, well- I'm not a religious man. but I feel that some ancient truths hold fast even today. Most Native American tribes practiced a form of mutilation to their enemies (mind you, this was not a common practice until after contact with French trappers and traders who offered a bounty on scalps as a means to eliminate competition between uncooperative tribes) because they felt that the spirit would continue to the afterlife incomplete. The indigenous peoples of the Americas never fully understood the motives for a bounty on scalps- they assumed WE believed the same as they did.
Anyway, who am I to question a spiritual practice that has been in place for possibly thousands of years? It may be mumbo-jumbo, it may be not. I'll never know until I pass on. It just doesn't FEEL right.
An odd contradiction, though- The art of taxidermy is fascinating and, at the same time, beautiful. I can't say I agree with using it as a means to display how macho one is. It seems many of the people I know with 'Trophy rooms' are also those with little regard for fuel economy, recycling, utility/water conservation, charity, or the plight of the underprivileged, etc. I say MANY, not all.
Granted- museums and various Wildlife foundations possess mounts of respective animals as well. I don't mind this- I helps promote awareness to their cause by providing a visual reminder of what they're trying to preserve. the Smithsonian has thousands upon thousands of preserved species sent back from the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Again, this is great- Many are the only examples left of an extinct species. Without them, who will remember?
My final self-contradiction...
I feel that everyone is entitled to ONE monster; elk deer, bear, etc.
If a mount of that Exemplary specimen is in your own way a means of showing respect to the majesty of that creature or the hardship and self sacrifice that was endured to take it, that is your perogative and I support it. I do get bothered when there are several mounts of the same species on a wall. What's the point? It seems that the hunter is constantly trying to one-up himself. Why not hold off for that ONE animal that you will be doubtful of ever surpassing in your lifetime. ONE monster. Make it count!
Two years ago, I passed up the biggest deer I have ever seen in my lifetime. No joke, through the 7X binoculars its rack was so big I swore it was an elk. Very, very tall and swept back.
Through the scope, cranked up to 16X, it was apparent it was in fact a deer. My cousin ranged it at 503 yards. I passed on the shot, because the night before at the campfire, I swore to my Dad that I would never again take a shot at an animal that I hadn't HUNTED... tried to stalk and outsmart.
There was no way to get closer to this buck, and I was sitting on a hillside, ten feet from the truck. I refused to shoot such an animal only ten feet from the truck.
I got in a fist fight with my cousin because of this after he missed several times- and he knew I could have dropped it. The buck trotted off unscathed. I will never hunt with such a rack-hungry SOB again.
Well, I'm beginning to ramble. I know somebody is gonna find a way to poke this full of holes, and frankly, I could care less.
This is how I believe. Take it or leave it.

 

[ridgetops]

I respect your point of view, don't agree with alot of it but I do respect it.

 

[coyoteslayer]

I dont agree with a lot of what you said either, but everyone has their own point of view.