Utah’s system is the best, most fair system out of all the systems.
Satisfaction
I like how the state posts the hunter satisfaction scores along with the harvest data. Ya, it's not perfect but I find it can be useful when looking at different choices going into the draw season. Since we have the new 2022 harvest data posted I decided to do some quick 10 key work last night. I am in the elk game so I only did this number crunch regarding elk. I did a simple average of the satisfaction per hunt per season type. All Units are weighted the same. These scores are on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being least satisfied with the hunt and 5 being most satisfied. Here is what I came up with:
Archery: 3.72
Muzzleloader: 4.02
Early Rifle: 4.09
Late Rifle: 3.96
Multi Season: 3.54
Mid Season: 3.60
September Archery: 3.39
HAMS: 3.70
CWMU: 4.52
These surprised me a little. Especially the Multi-season hunt. I think guys have such high expectations and put so much pressure on themselves it diminishes the hunt for them. The high satisfaction on the CWMU doesn't really surprise me as they are including guided paying clients in this so I can see that being skewed. I wish they would only list the satisfaction of the public hunter, I would bet those scores would drop.
Using this along with harvest stats I would say the best value for your points is Muzzleloader and Late Rifle. The success % is comparable on these hunts to early rifle. Maybe if I find some time I can add in average success % to the discussion.
Interesting stuff
Archery: 3.72
Muzzleloader: 4.02
Early Rifle: 4.09
Late Rifle: 3.96
Multi Season: 3.54
Mid Season: 3.60
September Archery: 3.39
HAMS: 3.70
CWMU: 4.52
These surprised me a little. Especially the Multi-season hunt. I think guys have such high expectations and put so much pressure on themselves it diminishes the hunt for them. The high satisfaction on the CWMU doesn't really surprise me as they are including guided paying clients in this so I can see that being skewed. I wish they would only list the satisfaction of the public hunter, I would bet those scores would drop.
Using this along with harvest stats I would say the best value for your points is Muzzleloader and Late Rifle. The success % is comparable on these hunts to early rifle. Maybe if I find some time I can add in average success % to the discussion.
Interesting stuff
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Sounds to me is she is so busy you now have 11 points to use for you!Yeah, I've been seeing guys in the know talking about the LE muzzleloader elk hunt being the primo hunt for awhile. The early rifle hunt usually falls just a little earlier than ideal, and then the muzzy guys get the best rutting and bugling action all while drawing the tag with less points. My wife is currently in a great position to draw a top unit for muzzleloader with her 20 something (22 maybe?) elk points. Every year she just wants to do a bonus point because we are so "busy" apparently. I guarantee if I was the one with the pile of points we would somehow find the time.
I am not one of the lucky ones to hold an LL.You are arguing for something that has no bearing on my criticism. For some there was an opportunity, those from 1984 to 1994. For 28 full years since then others didn't have that opportunity. That's inherently inequitable. Sorry, there is no argument against that fact.
Once the last lifetime holder dies that criticism will become moot. For perspective, that should happen after I die. But if any parent was wise enough to buy their child one the final year it was offered this program will have an impact for decades to come.
My Dad and Mom, and both my Grandpa and Grandma hunted Deer with us before I was old enough to hunt.
To this day I do not understand why they did not impress on me the urgency to buy one.
Now that said, I don’t mind and I am not mad at those that hold an LL.
They were just smarter than me, and timing is everything.
It seems you are hung up a little on a ‘lifes not fair’ type issue.
I agree, it is not.
You seem like a very smart guy.
If I were you I would take advantage of everything you can right now and live in this moment.
The way the world is going it could all be gone in the push of a button.
It is what makes ‘life’ so dang exciting!
Just to be clear, and you can go back to post #16 to confirm, I said ‘most’ fair of the systems.Nothing in your post effectively criticizes any points I actually initially said , and have now clarified multiple times. In fact, you'll notice I already pointed out full random draw has "downstream effects". I've also stated similar to you, that fairness is contextual and often involves sacrificing one quality, like equity in draws, for another, like equity in outcomes, like actually being able to hunt a certain number of times in ones lifetime.
It sounds like your criticism is actually against the exact same thing I'm criticizing, ie the system is "fair" as stated by Shane. On that we agree. We just got there via different paths.
*And guaranteed LL tags will always impact current and future user successful tag odds as long as they exist in the user pool. It therefore disadvantages current and future hunters without them until it is no longer a variable. May that last person live long and enjoy hunting as long as they desire because the error was on the part of the state, not that individual or their wise family members who got it for them.
No system is perfect.
If it was, I would have a Buck/Bull/Pronghorn tag every year!
Hunter Tom,I don't think that DWR had the right to sell future hunting rights for temporary gain. They saddled game managers for as much as 80 or so years with that ignorant decision. What if the IRS said they have a money problem and offered lifetime tax exemption. Or troubled Sherriff agencies sold lifetime get out of jail cards to solve a temporary fiscal shortage, DWR should void the LL obligation and buy out remaining LL holders.
I want one!
Sign me up for Lifetime Tax Exemption now!!
If you are really smart get one before they sell out….
Gosh I hope you are right.Not just a Utah thing. Colorado and Wyoming have both seen the same uptick in applications. Seems like there was a sudden renewed interest in the outdoors and hunting. Maybe after a few years of fighting for tags and learning hunting is harder than it looks, some will give up. But so far, it appears to be here to stay.
I wish more people would take up golf and tennis.
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