[Vanilla]

That clarification is both fair and fairer than several others directed at me tonight

And I think the heart of the disagreement remains. Any system with a inherent advantage like the LL provided is less fair than the same infrastructure without it.

See, this is where your comment is both unfair and also factually inaccurate.

This thread was about satisfaction on LE elk hunts. Then there were comments about the BONUS point system being “the most fair,” not “fair.”

You took off and ran on this inaccurate pontification on lifetime licenses being an unfair advantage in this system when a lifetime license doesn’t provide any advantage in the LE elk system, and no advantage in the bonus pool system at all. I realize you got made fun of by someone that always makes fun of you and you two have beef, but that is no reason to dig in your heels. Just ignore him and realize you’re off the rails here.

So keep being unfair in your replies (see what I did there?), that’s okay, but at least be accurate. There is a serious objective error in your analysis here, one that I pointed out before in that LL don’t have anything to do with the systems we’re discussing in this thread. Nor do they have anything to do with one’s satisfaction on a hunt. (A LE elk hunt, no less!)

 

[backcountry]

Incorrect and it's disappointing to see you respond this way. The "bonus" point wasn't the context of my criticism, it was the overall system that was applauded.

To be very clear, my response you quoted to Shane was about Critter & someone else, not you.

And to be very clear, multiple people chose to engage the LL issue, including you. Even Shane engaged the LL aspect of my initial criticism and he was the one I intentionally quoted.

In the spirit of equanimity I challenge you to reread my initial criticism, and then my clarifications, of the "system" and LL in particular. Why are people making it about those ten years it was available? You'll notice most replies ignore what I actually criticized and have focused elsewhere despite making it clear those who have them are wide to get the promised tags. You'll notice I'm not criticizing the "players", instead the "game".

Critter's series of responses is indicative of what I'm describing. They engaged the LL issue voluntarily as if it was relevant. That's on them. If it wasn't it would be easy enough to ignore my criticism or state it's not relevant. Not until I pointed out the factual and inherent advantage the state provided individual LL holders have over the rest of the hunter pool did he then 1) make it personal and 2) claim it's irrelevant.

There is a theme in the replies to me and they have nothing to do with my actual criticisms, who I'm actually criticizing or the assumptions about my application opportunities & hunting experiences. Those are 100% aspects relevant to Critter's replies.

I hope you have a great day Vanilla. Sincerely.

*You may disagree with me calling out the failure of the site to actually moderate trolling. If you ascribe to the "ignore" em approach, more power to you. I don't, especially when at least one moderator actively supports trolling. I'm not shy about leaning into that tension and it's something related to my personal integrity.

 

[Vanilla]

People were just replying to you on the LL topic. Nobody was discussing it outside of the context you fabricated. And if you go back and review the posts, you’ll see it was absolutely about the bonus point system. (Half to the highest point holders, half random...that is the bonus point system, not general deer draw system.)

Don’t be disappointed. I’m trying to help you here. You’re off the rails on this discussion. You’re completely out of context arguing something that is irrelevant to hunter satisfaction or the LE elk system.

But proceed down this road if you must! If I haven’t convinced you of the error by now, I won’t ever.

 

[backcountry]

I've pointed out how others also personally chose to engage the LL subject matter and it's "fairness". It's fair game as multiple folks have made clear. These threads are very fluid and quoting in replies allows for multiple themes to unfold. If other users weren't interested in the LL issue & fairness it was simple enough to ignore or point out it's irrelevant as you believe. They chose to engage.

Have a good day, Vanilla. We are likely talking past each other at this point.

 

[Bux n Dux]

People were just replying to you on the LL topic. Nobody was discussing it outside of the context you fabricated. And if you go back and review the posts, you’ll see it was absolutely about the bonus point system. (Half to the highest point holders, half random...that is the bonus point system, not general deer draw system.)

Don’t be disappointed. I’m trying to help you here. You’re off the rails on this discussion. You’re completely out of context arguing something that is irrelevant to hunter satisfaction or the LE elk system.

But proceed down this road if you must! If I haven’t convinced you of the error by now, I won’t ever.

Get ready! Next he’s gonna throw out his diagnoses of a mental health disorder that you must have because he has no other logical tactics in his defense arsenal! He’s probably googling your symptoms on WebMD right now as we speak

 

[Catherder]

I will stay away from the current debate and agree that on almost every hunt I've been asked about, my ratings have been high. Invariably, if I was unsuccessful, it was due to my choice, or a mistake on my part, or I was successful. It always has been fun to get out.

That said, here is the harvest survey result of an OIL hunt I have been interested in.

hunters afield 4, harvest 2, average days 7.5, satisfaction 2.8.

These numbers DO cause me serious pause if I want to keep putting in. We ran into one of these guys when I was hunting antlerless elk last fall and he seemed pretty dejected. Unfortunately, we weren't of much help to him. My point is that the survey results and satisfaction can help one guide on what to use those hard earned points for.

 

[Hunter Tom]

I don't think that DWR had the right to sell future hunting rights for temporary gain. They saddled game managers for as much as 80 or so years with that ignorant decision. What if the IRS said they have a money problem and offered lifetime tax exemption. Or troubled Sherriff agencies sold lifetime get out of jail cards to solve a temporary fiscal shortage, DWR should void the LL obligation and buy out remaining LL holders.

 

[MrShane]

I don't think that DWR had the right to sell future hunting rights for temporary gain. They saddled game managers for as much as 80 or so years with that ignorant decision. What if the IRS said they have a money problem and offered lifetime tax exemption. Or troubled Sherriff agencies sold lifetime get out of jail cards to solve a temporary fiscal shortage, DWR should void the LL obligation and buy out remaining LL holders.

Hunter Tom,
I want one!
Sign me up for Lifetime Tax Exemption now!!
If you are really smart get one before they sell out….

 

[Bux n Dux]

I don't think that DWR had the right to sell future hunting rights for temporary gain. They saddled game managers for as much as 80 or so years with that ignorant decision. What if the IRS said they have a money problem and offered lifetime tax exemption. Or troubled Sherriff agencies sold lifetime get out of jail cards to solve a temporary fiscal shortage, DWR should void the LL obligation and buy out remaining LL holders.

I’m certain you’d be signing a different tune if you had a LL. I’ve never seen a person with a LL be an advocate to get rid of them for the remaining those who do still have them.

 

[Airborne]

Welp--this thread went off the rails but that's the way it goes, I know I I've derailed a few in my day but steering from satisfaction on LE Elk hunts to Lifetime License hate is quite a jump!

I will give a little advise--there are certain forum members that are just not fun to engage with; they just really don't seem like they would be fun at parties! Generally I will read the first sentence of their post and if it seems off putting or whacky I just don't read the rest. I seldom get past the first sentence. It's better all around this way as it's not worth the time.

Back to LE elk satisfaction scores--I agree with most, it's not the only season to apply or choose a hunt but it's a small factor among many to consider. I would argue harvest % is slightly more important if comparing the two. When choosing an LE hunt I know most folks will point a person to draw the LE unit they know the best but I don't subscribe to that. I like to learn units and sometimes going in blind can be fun. Part of the hunt to me is gathering information and researching the hunt that I draw. This includes asking forum folks for info which burns some guys. I don't see that as a problem from contributing members, it's not like you are hunting the same LE unit year in and year out.

 

[2filled]

I put in for the same LE Elk hunt every year.

1- it’s in my area and I could hunt it often, although when I draw a tag like that I would as much of the hunt off as possible when I was pre-retired.
2- I know the unit and have hunted it for elk and deer over the years.
3- it’s a good unit with a chance of taking a trophy bull, but I tend to get excited on LE hunts and take the first good one I see 😁. It’s kind of a personal problem.

But that’s just my thought process.
I don’t worry about what other people think about the unit.

 

[johnnycake]

I may be misremembering, but I swear that once upon a time you could break out the public vs private hunter success and satisfaction ratings for CWMUs.

 

[MWScott72]

2

You are arguing for something that has no bearing on my criticism. For some there was an opportunity, those from 1984 to 1994. For 28 full years since then others didn't have that opportunity. That's inherently inequitable. Sorry, there is no argument against that fact.

Once the last lifetime holder dies that criticism will become moot. For perspective, that should happen after I die. But if any parent was wise enough to buy their child one the final year it was offered this program will have an impact for decades to come.

I'm going to jump in here before reading the whole thread. Life is not fair Backcountry. If it was we would all be millionaires...no billionaires with no worries or limitations whatsoever. There are so many scenarios out there that "aren't fair" but that's just it. Life is NOT fair. It a person wants "fair", the Cub Scouts do a pretty good job at it. Even little Johnny (no offense Mr. Cake) gets his participation trophy even though he has no skill, ability, or talent otherwise to deserve it.

 

[backcountry]

2


I'm going to jump in here before reading the whole thread. Life is not fair Backcountry. If it was we would all be millionaires...no billionaires with no worries or limitations whatsoever. There are so many scenarios out there that "aren't fair" but that's just it. Life is NOT fair. It a person wants "fair", the Cub Scouts do a pretty good job at it. Even little Johnny (no offense Mr. Cake) gets his participation trophy even though he has no skill, ability, or talent otherwise to deserve it.

You'll find it you read the thread I actually agree and say so explicitly.

Nor is it about the cultural hobgoblins you reference.

 

[Bux n Dux]

You'll find it you read the thread I actually agree and say so explicitly.

I think you missed the part where most people don’t care to read certain members posts…

 

[colorcountrygunner]

This thread really did go off the rails. That's the worst thing about forums. All you yahoos that think you know everything just end up annoying the hell out of guys like me that actually do.

 

[johnnycake]

This thread really did go off the rails. That's the worst thing about forums. All you yahoos that think you know everything just end up annoying the hell out of guys like me that actually do.

It's obviously the DWR's fault for killing all the elk cows on the Wasatch

 

[backcountry]

A heavy winter would be a good time to try dropping some aeriel flour sacks again. Evidence will either disappear or slowly make some self-raising biscuits

 

[johnnycake]

A heavy winter would be a good time to try dropping some aeriel flour sacks again. Evidence will either disappear or slowly make some self-raising biscuits

Are you mad?! With the deer herd already dangerously deficient in selenium, the last thing they need is flour. The testicular impact alone would be devastating

 

[backcountry]

Why did the phrase "testicular impact" actually hurt? Oh deer.