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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just have a few questions for people who probably know more than I do. This year will be my first year muzzleloading since I bought my gun last year.

I'm getting serious about it because I want to be ready to put that 190" buck on my wall.

here's whats going on: I shoot a CVA Accura V2 with 110gr of blackhorn 209 and a barnes 290gr TMZ.
I thought I had it mostly sighted in since the last time I shot it but, I had to do some tweeking. I shot at 50 yards bringing to 3" high. I shot 3 or 4 rounds almost touching (i did not take a picture of that target).
Next i put up a new target and moved out to 100 yards. all my targets are 2" black circles which the cross hairs of my scope pretty much covers up. I shot 4 rounds at 100 yards all of which are about 4" high about a 1.5" -2" group.

Okay? you fallowing me??

so at 50 yards i'm 3" high. move out to 100 yards and i'm 4" high maybe a hair more.

then I move out to 200 yards and my first 2 shots hit about 2.5" apart from each other and about 3" to 4" low. then the 3rd shot hits roughly 8" low (maybe I pulled) my targets I draw for 200 yards are 4" circles not that it matters because my crosshairs pretty much cover the entire paper at that distance.

I shot probably 35 times today and ran out of primers. there were the occasional flyers that would hit right, or low or whatever, but Im just going to say that was due to a 1X scope

SO..... all in all, as I understand it. my gun shot 3" high at 50 yards, 4.5" high at 100 yards and an average or 4" low at 200 yards.

to all you people that know better than me, does this sound right? or normal?

here are some pictures to maybe help you understand Sorry I didn't take a picture of my 100 yard target. forgot

(thinking of trying some 250gr barnes TMZ along side of my 290's to see what happens.)

.....Opinions.....
 

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Being the least knowledgeable person in the room, assuming that everything I've been given to work with is true, this is what I'd say-- Your firearm is sighted in somewhere between 100 and 200 yards. It reaches that peak that results in a 4 inch high 100 yard zero, comes down and hits our "zero" somewhere in between 100 and 200, and continues dropping somewhere within our low at 200 yards exactly.

With that said, if you're of the mindset that focuses on point-blank range, it sounds like the perfect scenario. You know that if you see an animal within 100 yards where range is easy to eye-ball, just compensate a little. If they're further away, you can launch at them and be relatively sure of your shot. Even if you aim at center of mass, on an elk sized target you should still take out the lungs anywhere within that 200 yard marker. A deer may require a little more finesse, but it is certainly do-able.

That's my take on it. Someone more knowledgeable may have other more clever explanations.
 
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So something like this then... I never go more than 3" over line of sight. I personally would not shoot that high over line of sight.


-DallanC
 

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PS: go get some of those 50 yard rimfire targets, they are the perfect size for 100 yard muzzleloader shooting.


-DallanC
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
DallanC you have to explain your chart a little better for me to understand what everything means. it gets me dizzy looking at all those numbers.

with that said. my goal with my muzzy is to have less compensation at grater distances. for instance, a little high at 100 yards doesn't bather me so much if its just a matter of aiming an inch or 2 low.

i'm just inquiring how muzzleloading ballistics work. I can figure out a rifle but, maybe i'm looking into it too deep...

like I told my wife when i got home. "if every shot I took today was on a deer, they all would have been kill shots"
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OOHHH, just figured out the chart. my eye's had to adjust. so that is the exact path of my bullet?
 

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Its a close path based on the information given. To be exact, we'd need your muzzle velocity, and height of the crosshairs above bore.

with that said. my goal with my muzzy is to have less compensation at grater distances. for instance, a little high at 100 yards doesn't bather me so much if its just a matter of aiming an inch or 2 low.
Thats the part I dont get, why have to worry adjusting point of aim (POI) on almost EVERY shot under 100 yards? Honestly you will rarely be shooting 200 yards anyway. I've been hunting with smokepoles my whole life and have yet to shoot at a deer past 145 yards (and I got him). I love a 125 yard sight in. If you want to shoot farther get a good range finder, and learn holdover for the various ranges past that.

-DallanC
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
the part I don't get is how the hight of crosshair above bore effects it. explain. and what part of that do you mean? its sitting on about a half inch tall scope mount,by the time you get to the crosshairs it looks to be about an inch. when I look in the scope it looks to be about an inch above the end of the barrel.
I would bet that i'm shooting faster than 1800. only reason is I had someone say they were getting 2,000 with the same combo and gun

I do feel however, that I want to bring it down to 3" high at 100. It will have a little more drop at 200 but, not that much more.

I plan on shooting my deer close but, I want to be prepared to make a 200 yard shot. I'll be hunting above 10,000 feet and some of that open country might not allow me to sneak into 75 yards. I'm just trying to be the most effective at all ranges from 0-200 yards is all. how do I look up my data on that chart? I'm going to be shooting most every weekend until the hunt so once I dial it it titz on a ritz I can compare it to the chart.
 

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I dont have time or patience to explain external ballistics anymore.

Suffice it to say when you throw a football you have to throw it upward in order to counteract gravity. Same thing goes with bullets. The bullet doesn't launch from your eye, it launches below the eye inside the barrel, and your barrel is canted upward so the bullets path initially starts upward and the force of gravity pulls it back down. Its that path from the actual launch point, through your line of sight (eyeball to target, a straight line) that gets computed.

PS: That software image linked is found at www.HuntingNut.com, as an online calculator. There is also a PC version of the software there that is much more powerful.

Both are free.

PSS: Never trust velocites stated on a ammo box, MFG website, or from your lifelong buddy... you will only ever truly know what it is if you shoot over a cronograph and measure it. I'll bet 1800fps is pretty close for a 290grn bullet.

-DallanC
 

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With my Knight muzzie, I'm getting 1895 fps with the Barnes 290 TMZ (using Knight specific sabots that are softer plastic han Barnes) and 90 grains of Blackhorn. That being said, CVA bores are usually a little looser (0.001 inch) than Barnes, so your velocity is likely different.

That being said, I wouldn't focus much on shooting out to 200 yards. With mine, I limit my shots to 150 yards. I passed on a 178 yard shot last fall, but the next day, got a better shot and filled my tag. I've filled elk tags the last two years with that muzzleloader. Besides, I don't trust scope crosshairs on a 1X scope that far out. When your crosshairs cover too much of the target at that distance, how can you be sure the bullet will go where you want it to.
 

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the part I don't get is how the hight of crosshair above bore effects it. explain.
To perhaps simplify it a bit, lets try and build an image. lets assume that your scope is also a red dot, laser scope. You have a perfectly linear and infinite line in the center of your cross hairs. a laser. if that line is an inch above your bore, sighted at 100 yards, you needed the arc of your bullet, which unlike your light is affected by gravity, to intersect your light exactly at 100 yards.

You won't be able to do it on the way up. It just isn't likely at the very least. But if you get your bullet above that line early and then have it fall back into place at 100 yards, you would have it "sighted in" at 100 yards.

Our issue here is that the arc going above our line is, if the former graph is accurate, 4.5 inchs high at 100 yards, probably landing back into our laser at around 160-180 yards. So I suppose if you were to move your cross hairs up about 4 inches, you would bring your gun down into the 100 yard zero zone. So where ever your bullets hit, chase them with your cross hairs and bring them back center.

Did this really answer anything?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I think I'v got it figured out. been thinking about it a lot today and the fact of the matter is, my gun shot very well at all ranges yeaterday. 2 bullet holes side by side 4 inches low of center at 200 yards is pretty darn good if you ask me. the only thing i'll probably do different is bring my POI down to 3" maybe 3.5" at 100 yards. maybe i'll leave it who knows.
I'll have to decide that the next time I shoot. 4" on a deer at 100 yards is still in the vitals.
thanks for your opinions guys!
 

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I'd second the recommendation to bring your trajectory down. I would also add to take a little bit of extra time and put a little extra thought & effort into the ranges you are comfortable shooting at game and tailor your gun to that.

Personally, I've had my muzzleloader sighted in a couple different ways over the years. First was just a straight up 100 yard zero and used holdovers from there. Then I read about the Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR) method and kind of haphazardly set it up for an MPBR of ±3" with a smaller bullet when I only hunted deer. Then I decided to chase elk and jumped to a bigger bullet. At that point, I really thought critically about what shots I'm capable of and what shots I'm comfortable with. Big distinction there, I've found that I'm capable out to 250 yards at the range, but in the field I'm comfortable out to 150 yards (especially on deer... a little bit further on elk just because they are a bigger target). After spending a good bit of time thinking about my own comfort levels and capabilities I used the ballistics calculator Dallen has refernced (the full version for PCs is great by the way) to play around with different zeroes and found a trajectory that I am supremely confident with based upon what I'm comfortable with. I decided to go with a 2" high max trajectory because the flight path of the bullet fits my comfort zone absolutely perfectly... and that breeds confidence.

I shoot 300gr Hornady XTP-MAG, 2 Pyrodex pellets, Winchester Primer... sighted in as follows:
2" high at 75 yards
1.5" high at 100 yards
zeroed at 128 yards
2.25" low at 150 yards

By my calculations velocity is 1839fps with 1.5" groups at 100 yards and sub-4" groups at 200 yards.

My setup fits what I'm comfortable shooting perfectly... out to 150 yards I know that the trajectory of my bullet is never higher than 2" above my point of aim and never lower than 2" below my point of aim (it's actually 2.25" below at 150 as I mentioned before, but when the bullet itself is .5" we're just splitting hairs). So out to 150 yards I am confident that I can simply point & shoot and I know that I'll hit within the more generous 6" or so vital area of the mule deer buck and the 8" or so vital area of the bull elk. I do know the holdovers for distances out to 250 yards and can reach out that far... just in case.
 

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Also for targets I like to use a custom target that I've made that is a 7" red diamond with a large black "X" behind the diamond that gives me a good visual reference of the center of the target at 100 yards.

At 200 yards, I use the top of the target board as a horizontal reference for the horizontal crosshair on the scope. For the side to side I use a couple strips of duct tape in a ^ shape at the center top of the target as reference for the vertical crosshair. It still gets tough to see as the crosshairs cover a lot of it up and my eyes aren't what they used to be even though they were never great to begin with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
thanks guys! yeah, i'm going to bring it down just a bit. I'd like to have about a 150 yard zero though. I feel very comfortable shooting out to 200 yards. when were really talking about splitting hairs, there isn't much difference from 2" to 3" on a deers vitals.

It will be harder to determine the difference between a few inches at 200 yards through a scope than it will be at 100 yards...

last year on the GS archery, I was with in 3 bucks that were in the 180 class range. I got anywhere between 100 yards and 175 yards. thats been my luck in this spot for the last 3 years. its been challanging for me to sneak on these bucks in all the shell rock. I choose not to shoot my bow farther than 60 yards like some people do. Had I been carrying a muzzleloader I could have gotten it done, so I fully expect on taking a shot between 150-200 yards if I have to. thats my whole Idea behind minimal compensation as distances a little farther. if my bullet is never higher then 3" thats fine with me.

i'm use to arching bullet. I grew up with a 30-06 zeroed at 300 yards. that puts me 4" high at 100 yards, I'v always killed deer with that setup.

thanks for your input guys!! really.
It helps me determine how I want to set up some of my equipment.

I guess what it really boils down to is ballistics. I hand load all of my rifles and I can tell you the exact flight from the time the bullet leave the barrel until it reaches 600 yards, but with being new to muzzy's I don't know what I need to expect. The ballistics chart really helps

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
also I use the smallest target I can to get a better grouping (aim small miss small)
for muzzys I can see how a bit bigger target would help
 
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