[rtockstein]

Surely, everyone here knows we can't use smokeless powder in muzzy in Utah, right?

I keep seeing bolt action muzzleloaders at the range, have smelled a couple that definitely weren't BP or substitute, and I sold some h4198 to a guy a couple months ago that said he was using it in his bolt muzzleloader.

I'm reading the regs today to refresh myself on a couple of things and lo and behold it says you can't use smokeless in a muzzleloader.

I didn't know that because I have never owned a muzzy or bought a tag. Now I know. I wish others did too and wish the ones that do would follow rules.

People stretching every law they can to gain an edge drives me nuts.

 

[Critter]

The problem is that they are building muzzle loaders now that will handle the pressures that smoke less powders produce and they are actually recommended to use a smoke less powder.

It's up to the consumer, hunter, shooter, or whoever to know the rules. The problem is that they are quite likely not to get caught.

 

[APD]

after living and hunting here for over two decades i'm pretty sure the rules are optional. it's somewhere in the guidebook if you read it.

 

[rtockstein]

I knew some newer ones could handle high pressures but didn't know using smokeless was recommended in them.

It's unfortunate we can continue to push the envelope with all weapons as much as the governing state allows. The capability of shooting game to 1000+yds with a rifle, 100 with a bow, and 400 or more with a muzzy is nuts.

 

[Critter]

The rules for a muzzle loader here in Colorado is that you can't use pellets, or saboted bullets. I was hunting with a couple of people a few years ago that when they went to load up their muzzle loaders they dropped in some powder pellets and saboted bullets and rammed them home. I mentioned that they were not suppose to be using the pellets and bullets but their explanation was that as long as they got their first shot with what gave them the best accuracy out of their rifles no one will know. They also mentioned that they didn't carry any extra pellets or bullets with them so that if they were checked in the field the DWR officer wouldn't see anything unless he made them unload their muzzle loaders.

I'm glad that was a one time hunt with those two.

 

[taxidermist]

Back in 1989 we had a buck shot with a ML and a round ball from a .50 Hawken Rifle. The F&G check us as we were coming out of the woods. The officer had some kind of a liquid that he placed on the entrance hole. When he was prepping to do this, he said that it it detects black powder residue and will turn color if it is black powder.

I knew some officers are close at being a CSI guru, but that was amazing to see that technology in the day. They use the liquid to determine if an animal was shot with a centerfire cartridge I guess. Smokeless powders don't have the Sulphur in them I guess.

 

[Ray]

after living and hunting here for over two decades i'm pretty sure the rules are optional. it's somewhere in the guidebook if you read it.

They’re more guidelines really 😂

 

[cweiss1787]

I knew some newer ones could handle high pressures but didn't know using smokeless was recommended in them.

It's unfortunate we can continue to push the envelope with all weapons as much as the governing state allows. The capability of shooting game to 1000+yds with a rifle, 100 with a bow, and 400 or more with a muzzy is nuts.

It's ridiculous anymore. I know a guy that's shooting his muzzle loader out to 1500 yards. I wish they'd at least take it back to where you can only use a 1 power scope or open sight on them. I'll never put a scope on mine.

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[rtockstein]

I think the guys at Quigley would scoff at these new MLs and then go harvest a big game animal at 500 with their vernier sight and BP in a sharps 1874. Power to them!

I'm looking forward to the day I can get a long rifle or flinter hawken and go lug that around the woods and be happy to harvest one at 50 with BP. That will make me happy

 

[Critter]

I think the guys at Quigley would scoff at these new MLs and then go harvest a big game animal at 500 with their vernier sight and BP in a sharps 1874. Power to them!

I'm looking forward to the day I can get a long rifle or flinter hawken and go lug that around the woods and be happy to harvest one at 50 with BP. That will make me happy

The difference with the Sharps is that it takes a black powder cartridge and is loaded from the breach and not the muzzle.

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[rtockstein]

The difference with the Sharps is that it takes a black powder cartridge and is loaded from the breach and not the muzzle.

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DUH! I knew that.

 

[Critter]

DUH! I knew that.

You might be surprised at how many people don't. They figure that it is a black powder rifle so they can hunt with it as long as they use black powder in the cartridge.



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[taxidermist]

Some folks don't know that cartridge's as the like of 45-70, 38-55, 50-100 were named that from the caliber being the first number, and the second was the volume of black powder loaded.

 

[rtockstein]

Some folks don't know that cartridge's as the like of 45-70, 38-55, 50-100 were named that from the caliber being the first number, and the second was the volume of black powder loaded.

And that you'll rarely get 70gr black powder in to modern cases because the head of the case back in the 1800s had more room for powder.

The shooting of that era is very interesting

 

[Lone_Hunter]

after living and hunting here for over two decades i'm pretty sure the rules are optional. it's somewhere in the guidebook if you read it.

They’re more guidelines really 😂

Anyway, I haven't been hunting with smoke poles very long, but even a newbie like me can tell things are getting out of hand.
Like the CVA paramount:

CVA Paramount Muzzleloader: Read This Before You Buy One!

CVA made some impressive claims with their new CVA Paramount muzzleloader, but does it live up to the hype? I've gotten a chance to test it

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

I don't think a smokepole should be have "an effective range nearly on the level of a centerfire rifle ".

I wish DWR didn't authorize scopes either. What was that, 3 or 4 years ago? I forget. I finally (and begrudgingly) mounted one on my optima this year and zeroed it at 150 yards. Which i'm sheepish to admit, but the ballistics on the sabots supports it. Only reason I use either, is because the state allows it. Honestly, Id much rather have a 50 cal hawken with a peep site, and something resembling a minnie ball. I've also grown to wish that things like onX didn't exist. Genie is out of the bottle though, and there's no putting it back now.

Sometimes hunting feels like it's become a technological arms race. Especially with the increased crowds and population. Things that once gave an edge, now seem like a minimum requirement.

 

[DallanC]

Anyway, I haven't been hunting with smoke poles very long, but even a newbie like me can tell things are getting out of hand.

I don't think a smokepole should be have "an effective range nearly on the level of a centerfire rifle ".

They don't, nor ever will. ML bullet BC's just aren't high enough. As good as ML's get, rifles are double their range... or triple.

I wish DWR didn't authorize scopes either. What was that, 3 or 4 years ago? I forget.

Not remotely close, they have been allowed for over 30'ish years now. Its been so long I really cant remember when they first allowed them. What they changed is allowing higher magnifications. IMO I'd have been happy with a 2x limit due to aging eyes, but really I don't find the higher magnifications that big of a deal.

Honestly, Id much rather have a 50 cal hawken with a peep site, and something resembling a minnie ball. I've also grown to wish that things like onX didn't exist. Genie is out of the bottle though, and there's no putting it back now.

Nothing stopping you from hunting with a Hawken and Mini/Maxi's... nothing at all. OnX sucks... used it once, it failed in the field when I most needed it. Ended up resorting to my old school paper maps I had with me as a backup.

Things that once gave an edge, now seem like a minimum requirement.

Not at all. Plenty of people still hunt with old guns, crappy binoculars and levi's. I've said it for ages here... the VAST majority of deer I've killed in my life, have been around 60 yards. None of the technology you mentioned above would have mattered in the slightest.

Especially with the increased crowds and population.

DWR issues around 90,000 deer tags a year for all seasons... When I was first old enough to hunt, they issued 280,000 tags. Younger people simply have no concept of how crowded it used to be, and how good we have it now actually.

-DallanC

 

[rtockstein]

They don't, nor ever will. ML bullet BC's just aren't high enough. As good as ML's get, rifles are double their range... or triple.



Not remotely close, they have been allowed for over 30'ish years now. Its been so long I really cant remember when they first allowed them. What they changed is allowing higher magnifications. IMO I'd have been happy with a 2x limit due to aging eyes, but really I don't find the higher magnifications that big of a deal.



Nothing stopping you from hunting with a Hawken and Mini/Maxi's... nothing at all. OnX sucks... used it once, it failed in the field when I most needed it. Ended up resorting to my old school paper maps I had with me as a backup.



Not at all. Plenty of people still hunt with old guns, crappy binoculars and levi's. I've said it for ages here... the VAST majority of deer I've killed in my life, have been around 60 yards. None of the technology you mentioned above would have mattered in the slightest.



DWR issues around 90,000 deer tags a year for all seasons... When I was first old enough to hunt, they issued 280,000 tags. Younger people simply have no concept of how crowded it used to be, and how good we have it now actually.

-DallanC

While that's all true, I have a huge problem with the seemingly limitless improvements that are made to gear and weapons and states allowing their use. Hunters are more capable than ever (given actual hunting knowledge and capability) of taking animals consistently at greater and greater distances. This is just going to drive issued tag numbers down if the agency issues them according to herd health and population and we will be helping to decrease our own hunting opportunity for success reasons instead of just hunter numbers

 

[DallanC]

Meh, not really. See we have this thing called the Harvest Report that the dwr puts out yearly.

My unit was roughly 24% last year. The oldest data they show was 2013... and that year was just under 24%. Pretty similar.

Technology having an effect? Not enough to notice. The weather probably has more impact on harvest rates.

-DallanC

 

[DallanC]

BTW, I just compared the any weapon success for my area between 2020 and 2013. Success has dropped by 10% over that period. Maybe people aren't buying enough new tech to stay competitive? Rofl...

Archery success increased by 1% though.

-DallanC

 

[Lone_Hunter]

Not at all. Plenty of people still hunt with old guns, crappy binoculars and levi's. I've said it for ages here... the VAST majority of deer I've killed in my life, have been around 60 yards. None of the technology you mentioned above would have mattered in the slightest.

Honestly, I was thinking about OnX when I said that. I have my reasons, but the summation is, family members I know who've avoided it, are now adopting it.. saying to me "ive seen the downsides, figured i might as well see the benefits." Most spots now can be found by anyone with OnX and the time to use it. I sat down for two hours showing him how to use it. The thing is, every tom dick and harry with onx has been finding their traditional hunting area. If you didn't have onX, you'd assume the whole area is private. That is information, provided by technology. That is an edge. Everyone uses it now. If you don't have onX or something like it, your behind the curve.

Being competitive is a thing, and many are always looking for ANY edge, real or perceived, they can get. I just avoid people in general cause while people are usually friendly, it starts to feel too much like a competition. I'm just not into that, id rather be left alone.