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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...you-dont-understand-about-the-bundy-standoff/

I didn't want to post this in the militia thread because I wanted to bring a full discussion the subject. Here a rancher from Oregon wrote a peace on how the BLM and FS make it hard for ranchers to basically do as they see fit on public lands. I'm beyond tired of this attitude of entitlement these people have. I don't need the sob story of how hard it is to be a rancher. My family has raised cattle, accepted no federal money whatsoever for fencing/sprinklers/drought/etc., never grazed on public property, and even with a small herd of cattle, made plenty of money every single year. The price of beef and other livestock has risen over the past decade, while public land grazing is still far below fair value to the rest of us. This is not a post to say that I am against public land grazing, but it has gotten to beyond a point of disgust with the few of them and their entitlement attitude. We see it in Utah as much as anywhere. We have people in rural communities, and many legislative seats in this state that use this argument against the BLM and FS.

Guess what, oil and gas would have many more wells if they had there way, mines would take much more ground to tear up, grazers want more grazing rights, I personally would like more elk, environmentalists want to shut it all down. Yes there are policies that don't make sense that need to be fixed, but its time to bring these welfare cases to this century. They are not the only ones who have a problem with the use they are allowed on these lands, everyone wants more of what they want and less of what someone else wants. It's human nature, it's just there side can't see past their selfishness to understand they are not the only ones with frustration and not the only ones who hold a stake in this land.

Now you can fire back at me if you feel the need to, but the sob story about ranching and farming is just that a sob story. As I said, my family has and still raises cattle, takes no government money to run the operation, and still come out ahead every single year. We also purchase all our hay. It is not as difficult to make it not sucking off the taxpayer and federal governments tit as they make it seem.
 

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...you-dont-understand-about-the-bundy-standoff/

I didn't want to post this in the militia thread because I wanted to bring a full discussion the subject. Here a rancher from Oregon wrote a peace on how the BLM and FS make it hard for ranchers to basically do as they see fit on public lands. I'm beyond tired of this attitude of entitlement these people have. I don't need the sob story of how hard it is to be a rancher. My family has raised cattle, accepted no federal money whatsoever for fencing/sprinklers/drought/etc., never grazed on public property, and even with a small herd of cattle, made plenty of money every single year. The price of beef and other livestock has risen over the past decade, while public land grazing is still far below fair value to the rest of us. This is not a post to say that I am against public land grazing, but it has gotten to beyond a point of disgust with the few of them and their entitlement attitude. We see it in Utah as much as anywhere. We have people in rural communities, and many legislative seats in this state that use this argument against the BLM and FS.

Guess what, oil and gas would have many more wells if they had there way, mines would take much more ground to tear up, grazers want more grazing rights, I personally would like more elk, environmentalists want to shut it all down. Yes there are policies that don't make sense that need to be fixed, but its time to bring these welfare cases to this century. They are not the only ones who have a problem with the use they are allowed on these lands, everyone wants more of what they want and less of what someone else wants. It's human nature, it's just there side can't see past their selfishness to understand they are not the only ones with frustration and not the only ones who hold a stake in this land.

Now you can fire back at me if you feel the need to, but the sob story about ranching and farming is just that a sob story. As I said, my family has and still raises cattle, takes no government money to run the operation, and still come out ahead every single year. We also purchase all our hay. It is not as difficult to make it not sucking off the taxpayer and federal governments tit as they make it seem.
1 I, I call BS on some of your post. I know that there are ranchers that have "entitled" mentalities, but as sportsman, let's be realistic towards the challenges they face as well. While beef prices have been high for the last 5-6 years, other costs have been very high as well. There is a reason most beef producers who run any less than 100 to 200 cows have to have a second job. Beef ranching is a numbers game, and that means land. Lots of it in Utah. I am not a rancher, have no cows now, but grew up on a dairy farm. And anyone who thinks farmers and ranchers are "getting rich" on cattle are kidding themselves. If you want to run through the numbers, we can do that, but don't spout off and claim that they are all welfare cases "sucking off the government ****". I take exception to that, as many of the hardest working, most self-reliant, generous individuals that I know are ranchers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
1 I, I call BS on some of your post. I know that there are ranchers that have "entitled" mentalities, but as sportsman, let's be realistic towards the challenges they face as well. While beef prices have been high for the last 5-6 years, other costs have been very high as well. There is a reason most beef producers who run any less than 100 to 200 cows have to have a second job. Beef ranching is a numbers game, and that means land. Lots of it in Utah. I am not a rancher, have no cows now, but grew up on a dairy farm. And anyone who thinks farmers and ranchers are "getting rich" on cattle are kidding themselves. If you want to run through the numbers, we can do that, but don't spout off and claim that they are all welfare cases "sucking off the government ****". I take exception to that, as many of the hardest working, most self-reliant, generous individuals that I know are ranchers.
I expected some flack for my post. Never did I say all of them are, in fact the vast majority of them are not. The issue is, we no longer live in the world we lived in 50-100 years ago. These lands have much more pressing issues mounting on them, and every interest group wanting their interest at the front of the line. We learned from overgrazing, now we are in the process of learning from over reaching environmentalism. The sad truth is these public lands especially in desert states, do not, and cannot produce enough beef for the market to make more than a marginal difference. Even when you add in all private land production, Utah is so insignificant in our current food market, we would hardly be missed if we disappeared tomorrow. My family doesn't have a lot of cattle, and yes isn't a livable amount of profit, everyone has a job outside of that. It's like hunting at one point people needed it to survive, now in our current world almost everyone would live just fine without hunting. Small market grazing and the livestock production, even small timber production that took place 5 decades ago and beyond, simply don't fit in to our current economy, market, or nation. You're right, to be profitable enough to make a living off of it, you have to be a big operation, and if you're not its not going to be sustainable. It's a sad truth. The BLM and FS hold some blame in this argument, but so does the changing demands of the economy, world we live in TODAY, and the mounting pressures on these lands that are not grazing. There is a sense of entitlement by many that do it (I'm not saying the majority or all) that feel we should and will always do what we've always done and the market, the economy, and pressures on these lands hold no water in an argument of why things simply won't stay the same forever. There's issue upon issue and policy upon policy that needs fixing both on state and federal levels to allow better land management, but also wise land management. I could open a business and make it much more successful if I had to pay taxes that were on pace for 50-100 years ago. While polices and attitudes within the BLM and FS need to change, I also believe the grazers and ranchers attitudes need to change as well, and that its time for them to start paying their tax that is fair for today, not 70 years ago.
 

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I agree with the fact that a few grazing permit holders act entitled in some ways but I also believe that it's not the majority of em. It's funny that you're sort of bashing on public lands ranchers and then say something like this.
My family has raised cattle, accepted no federal money whatsoever for fencing/sprinklers/drought/etc., never grazed on public property, and even with a small herd of cattle, made plenty of money every single year.
It's far easier to be profitable when you own the land and especially so if you're living on the property and don't have to travel to check your cows. These guys wouldn't be grazing public land if they had their own range, I can tell you that. I used to cowboy on a cow/calf that ran 1200 pairs and ever since I've wished I could get my own herd going somewhere here in Utah. The amount of land I would need to make a profit ranching full time is far out of my reach. If I wanted to run a small herd in addition to working full-time I would still need a large amount of money and would need to relocate to a much more isolated area and find another job.

Ranching requires an incredible amount of overhead, more than starting almost any business. To start a full-size profitable ranch these days you basically need to be a millionaire or be born into it. It's a hard way to make a living; you throw grazing permit fees into the mix and it's that much worse.

Just to be clear though, I don't think grazing permits are a right and I don't condone what those guys are doing up there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I agree with the fact that a few grazing permit holders act entitled in some ways but I also believe that it's not the majority of em. It's funny that you're sort of bashing on public lands ranchers and then say something like this.

It's far easier to be profitable when you own the land and especially so if you're living on the property and don't have to travel to check your cows. These guys wouldn't be grazing public land if they had their own range, I can tell you that. I used to cowboy on a cow/calf that ran 1200 pairs and ever since I've wished I could get my own herd going somewhere here in Utah. The amount of land I would need to make a profit ranching full time is far out of my reach. If I wanted to run a small herd in addition to working full-time I would still need a large amount of money and would need to relocate to a much more isolated area and find another job.

Ranching requires an incredible amount of overhead, more than starting almost any business. To start a full-size profitable ranch these days you basically need to be a millionaire or be born into it. It's a hard way to make a living; you throw grazing permit fees into the mix and it's that much worse.

Just to be clear though, I don't think grazing permits are a right and I don't condone what those guys are doing up there.
A lot of people I've encountered actually do own enough land that they graze on the mountain during the summer and have winter feed once their cattle are off the BLM and FS. Granted they would not be able to have as many cattle without the BLM and FS land. I will also grant you that there are huge cost at associated with ranching, which usually those costs are on private land and there are several federal grants to improve your operations for more efficiency. I just don't feel the BLM or FS has put grazers out of business any more than the taxes on small businesses now make it very hard to survive over large corporations. There's sad stories all over this country in a hundred different fashions of life. Now I am pretty upset about the whole Bundy family situation right now so I'll admit that's clouding my view. I also know a guy who owns about 150 head of cattle, he owns very little land and leases most of what he raises hay off of and grazes off of, including a pasture our family owns. He pays well above what grazers on public land pay and does okay.

My biggest frustration is I think this demonization of the BLM and FS is short sighted by some of these people. They don't realize the asset they have. What if the states do get this land transferred? I bet they pay more. What if the state starts selling the land? Are they going to be able to afford to purchase land in giant swaths? I don't see where they believe the great benefit of this whole public land scheme to them is. The Bundys bullcrap is never going to happen, even if the Feds agree to transfer or start selling, this land isn't going for free to whoever puts their hand up first. I think if the land is transferred and especially if it begins to be sold, as hard as some have it now, without public grazing as it exists today it will put a lot of them out of their way of life.
 

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At a $1.69 an AUM, its welfare, plain and simple. Market value is exponentially higher. My grandparents ranched and had a dairy. I know all about how hard it is, and how good and honest most of these people are. But it has got to the point that some ranchers will poach grazing just about anywhere, public, private, doesn't matter.

So not only is their grazing being paid for by everyone, they cost me money straight out of my own pocket to fence their cattle out, and maintain the fence. I just talked to a guy in Idaho last week that has around 1000 acres and he is up against the same problem. HHmmm, I wonder who keeps cutting the fence?

I've gone over several grazing agreements, because of stream abuses, over grazing, fencing issues, etc. And the vast majority are not in compliance with their agreements. They are running too many animals, not rotating allotments, etc.

Maybe we should all be able to camp and recreate on public property for similar fees.
 
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I work with a lot of private landowners, ranchers, and farmers. It is a diverse group just like any other segment of society. Unfortunately there are folks like the Bundy's. Fortunately there are folks who work collaboratively with public agencies, NGO's, and even environmental groups and are some of our greatest land stewards. I am privileged to work with some of them in Utah and get to meet these hard working individuals and hear stories from across the U.S. Hopefully this isn't hijacking your thread, just thought I would balance the perspective.

Here is a neat video just as an example. Take a second and watch, it isn't all doom and gloom.

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Just to put things into perspective. The guy who uses our pastures during the summer and fall pays $15 per month per head, that does not include the water bill which is culinary water and cattle consume a lot of water so that bill is usually fairly high as well every month. It is also their job to irrigate the pastures when it is our water turn. They also have a set date when they can go in (last week of May usually through mid October) and a set day to get out . Depending on how much water is available during that year determines how many head of cows the pastures can handle. There are two pastures they have to rotate the cattle themselves as well as fix the fences on the property their cattle use. Now the $15 per head is actually a cheaper than he pays on other ground he leases, private land usually runs at about $20 per AUM on private land.

Now unless you're looking to use and abuse the land, leasing from a private land owner comes with a lot of stipulations as well. The BLM and FS have some bad policies and a lot of work to do to improve their management skills, but $1.69 a month is highway robbery, especially when it's on the BLM and FS to improve these lands. You can give me the trouble of how they have to go check on the cattle, etc. but they also have to water, mend fences, rotate cattle, and do all of those things on private land as well. Federal land grazing is a gift sent from God to these people, even if it isn't perfect and it probably never will be, it's time to work on improving the relationship and fairness of the situation. The American taxpayers are being robbed by a private industry who wants an even further discounted rate. If the guy on our property told us he was going to pay $2 an AUM hed be gone that day because there is someone else in line waiting. Yet when the BLM removes livestock to prevent overgrazing or to stop someone who is decades behind in payments to taxpayers they are criticized for putting someone out of business. Yet if I told the guy to get his cattle off my property and he refused at the threat of a gun, he would be hauled off to jail like the criminal he is and his cattle would be removed with no outcry from anyone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Great video hemionus, it's too bad the welfare cases get the publicity.
 

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As it relates to hunting and fishing, I for have experienced an ever increasing lack of access to public lands caused by ranchers blocking access to roads that cross their private holdings. When you want access public ground and find a locked gate or posted sign, whatever your thoughts are on public easements are of no consequence at that time and place. I respect the rights of the land owner. That goes both ways. Laws should strip all grazing rights from any rancher that prevents access to public land, and give out over the counter depredation tags to hunters to harvest any live stock trespassing on public land. End the one way welfare system. Ranchers can not use our land and prevent us from accessing it, and we should be able to harvest unpermitted stock eating our feed.
 

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On blocking access you have to find out if the road that accesses it is private or if the county, forest service, or BLM has a right of way across it.

I know of a number of roads that are blocked off with a gate or something that used to be open to anyone that wanted to drive across them. But the government agency never did get a right of way or easement across these lands and a new owner has come in and put up the gate leaving the hunter/fisherman, recreational-est very little recourse.

If it is a public access road just call the local county sheriff or whoever is in control of the surrounding land and report them. But you might want to make sure that there is a easement or right-of-way through their property.
 

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A lot of people I've encountered actually do own enough land that they graze on the mountain during the summer and have winter feed once their cattle are off the BLM and FS. Granted they would not be able to have as many cattle without the BLM and FS land. I will also grant you that there are huge cost at associated with ranching, which usually those costs are on private land and there are several federal grants to improve your operations for more efficiency. I just don't feel the BLM or FS has put grazers out of business any more than the taxes on small businesses now make it very hard to survive over large corporations. There's sad stories all over this country in a hundred different fashions of life. Now I am pretty upset about the whole Bundy family situation right now so I'll admit that's clouding my view. I also know a guy who owns about 150 head of cattle, he owns very little land and leases most of what he raises hay off of and grazes off of, including a pasture our family owns. He pays well above what grazers on public land pay and does okay.

My biggest frustration is I think this demonization of the BLM and FS is short sighted by some of these people. They don't realize the asset they have. What if the states do get this land transferred? I bet they pay more. What if the state starts selling the land? Are they going to be able to afford to purchase land in giant swaths? I don't see where they believe the great benefit of this whole public land scheme to them is. The Bundys bullcrap is never going to happen, even if the Feds agree to transfer or start selling, this land isn't going for free to whoever puts their hand up first. I think if the land is transferred and especially if it begins to be sold, as hard as some have it now, without public grazing as it exists today it will put a lot of them out of their way of life.
I think I might not have fully understood your opinion before my first post. I actually agree with ya on pretty much everything ya say here^^
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

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Quote-#1deer1-I Here is a good interview to read, this rancher who grazes public land even admits the price is far below fair value, and Smoot, it's not you its me. I don't get my points across in a coherent way very often.Quote #1deer1-I:

ahh, yer always coherant, well most of the time:)
 

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On blocking access you have to find out if the road that accesses it is private or if the county, forest service, or BLM has a right of way across it.

I know of a number of roads that are blocked off with a gate or something that used to be open to anyone that wanted to drive across them. But the government agency never did get a right of way or easement across these lands and a new owner has come in and put up the gate leaving the hunter/fisherman, recreational-est very little recourse.

If it is a public access road just call the local county sheriff or whoever is in control of the surrounding land and report them. But you might want to make sure that there is a easement or right-of-way through their property.
The problem is rs 2477 right of way claims typically are only being enforced or challenged in cases where federal agencies have closed roads. There are hundreds of miles of county roads that have been closed by private land owners, but you don't see our legislature or governor throwing millions of dollars(our tax money) at lawsuits to get them back open for the public. These are real actual roads that go to public property, not some old two track that goes 1/2 a mile to no where that all but disappeared on its own.

You can call the Sheriff all you want, it won't do any good. Most counties will not enforce their own right of ways. I can only think of one case where Box Elder county came in and dozed a gate to maintain its(ours) right of way. In neighboring Cache county they spent plenty of money surveying them and looking at the issue. They got one gate open, and the land owner just barricaded it more. Now that the land owner lets state and federal agencies through, they have backed off on him closing it to the public, and actively allow him to do so.
 

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Just a note on those federally subsidized grazing fees. I am not completely against them being as low as they are. But when you are getting that kind of deal, and then have the nerve to still have your hand hanging out, sorry, I'm going to slap it. You can't talk property rights, and being oppressed, gub'mint over reach, etc. etc. when you are getting that kind of treatment. If you want to be sovereign, you better learn how to act sovereign.

Just for comparison: I want to expand my business, but I can't afford commercial space at $1.25 a foot. Do you think the feds should rent me some public buildings for $0.15 a foot? Or should I just take it from them(all of you). Or....should I be able to get such a deal, should I be thankful for that, and not feel that I am some how entitled to more.

I'm glad there are some distinctions being made between the guys that appreciate these low fees, and that work hard, and within their agreements, verses the welfare crowd. Because the good guys do deserve some credit in all of this. And the Welfare teet suckers need to be put in their proper places.
 
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Personally, any government program that is supposed to generate revenue from public resources (MUSY Act requires this, as did the Taylor Grazing Act) should be managed to, uhh, actually make money fit the government. Currently the BLM and Forest Service spend $2-3 managing the program for every dollar paid into the program. That is just plain stupid, and it means that any rancher utilizing public lands is being subsidized, aka welfare.
 

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The problem is rs 2477 right of way claims typically are only being enforced or challenged in cases where federal agencies have closed roads. There are hundreds of miles of county roads that have been closed by private land owners, but you don't see our legislature or governor throwing millions of dollars(our tax money) at lawsuits to get them back open for the public. These are real actual roads that go to public property, not some old two track that goes 1/2 a mile to no where that all but disappeared on its own.

You can call the Sheriff all you want, it won't do any good. Most counties will not enforce their own right of ways. I can only think of one case where Box Elder county came in and dozed a gate to maintain its(ours) right of way. In neighboring Cache county they spent plenty of money surveying them and looking at the issue. They got one gate open, and the land owner just barricaded it more. Now that the land owner lets state and federal agencies through, they have backed off on him closing it to the public, and actively allow him to do so.
I've actually have had pretty good luck calling the Sheriff and then the BLM or Forest Service when I have found a actual public road closed down by a private party.
Now if it was closed down by the agency in charge then good luck getting it open, but with enough pressure it might be.
 

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Last summer I found a square mile of beautiful spring creek with lots of oxbows on state land. It is landlocked by a private ranch. A road leaves the highway across private land for four miles then crosses the public land, then goes back to private. When you check it out on google earth it is pure stream porn. Gate locked at highway with signs intended to discourage entry. I would love to helicopter in, but not in budget. Checked with state wildlife office, they said they do not even have access, and indicated that the ranch would not be welcoming to a request for access by the unwashed public, and would be rude and probably hurt my feelings. I have other places to fish with no headaches. Ranch runs cattle on the national forest bordering the private land. Glad to know they are getting a helping hand. I wish I could find humor in this, but it is beyond me.
 
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