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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After reading all the responses to the 'other' thread claiming 'trophy' hunters and SFW and there ilk are what is 'ruining' hunting I started thinking about what I think is the biggest threat to my kids being able to hunt in 20 years. I believe very strongly it is APATHY.

I find it ironic that wyo2ut wrote:
If these sportsmen were truly interested in the future of their sport, why don't they find alternative ways of raising money instead of eliminating thousands of tags so a few rich guys can kill an animal?
My question is, where the hell is all the so-called opportunity hunters in this? Where is wyo2ut and his ilk in finding "alternative" ways of raising money? Where is the opportunity crowd when the decisions are being made? Where are they when proposals are made? Where are they on coming up with proposals of their own? Where are they on coming up with habitat projects?

Idiotwithabow asked:
If these volunteers are not going to ever get to hunt these sheep, what's in it for them?
While I can't answer for the others involved, I will say for me it was for MANY reasons. The biggest was the cool experience of being there. The knowledge that I get to now go look at these awesome animals whenever I want is another. They are very visible to the general public, and I will gladly take anyone interested out to look at them anytime it is requested. While it is true few will get to hunt them, and a few dollars will be made on tag sales, money was spent to put them there, and they would NOT be there at at if it weren't for those who put them there. A big reason the DWR went along with this was because they see it as a way to get the public an OPPORTUNITY to view bighorn sheep. The hunting of these animals is a very small aspect of the whole process.

I attend RAC's and see a handful of 'hunters' there, and many are there because they are mandated to be there as DH requirements. That, along with other things, tells me that MOST hunters don't care enough about hunting, and the future of hunting to get off there behinds and do SOMETHING about it! If the claim made by all on this topic is true, that MOST hunters prefer opportunity over trophy management, where are they? I believe the state MUST manage for both types, to manage to only one would make you every bit as guilty as what you me and SFW to be guilty of doing. And that is, alienating a certain segment of the hunting community. That is why I have the signature at the end of each post that I believe should be the motto of EVERY sportsman in Utah.
 

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Well I have to agree with what you are saying. I am a meat hunter as we all know. Yet I believe that there is/needs to be a good balance between the two. That is the key to the future of hunting.
 

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Pro,

I agree whole hartedly with your post. The opportunity crowd (me included) does not show up to share there voice. For many hunters over the last 30 years it was not a concern, there intrest in having there yearly opportunities to hunt elk and deer was not being attacked by other types of hunters, businesses.....times have changed. If we don't want to loose any more ground we need to start showing up and talking amongst our selves and our families. I know my siblings are not even aware of the politics, changes that have taken place and changes on the horizon. I need to educate them and get their support.

I believe the state MUST manage for both types, to manage to only one would make you every bit as guilty as what you me and SFW
Where we differ her PRO is you would continue to persue more Limited hunting trophy opportunity when I think it is already way out of balance in relation to the number of general season hunters v.s. LE hunters.

Now when I say that I realize we all put in for LE hunts, for most that is the only option to hunt the male species near the house or on that mountain range we grew up on but like treehgnhuntr said on another post the elk hunting for sure is way out of balance as far as the number of huntable acres given to LE v.s. general season and I fear the Deer hunting is being pushed to follow suit.

In short we do need to educate other hunters who are of our same mind set, organize and make an effort to go represent the masses.
 

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I agree to a point. The average joe needs to get involved. They have been sitting around and not keeping in contact with what is happening. They are going to wake up one morning and wonder where all the opportunity went and it will be thier own fault because they didn't do anything.

The conservation tag concept is a fine concept until you see what it is doing to the sportsmans groups you actually have a sportsmans group that advocates less hunters, not for the health of the herd but for the size of the antlers. Setting a few units aside to be quality units is fine but the push for the wildlife administration should be to get each unit to the maximim population and they shouldn't be managing for antler size or antler configuration. Their are other methods of having a quality unit that still gives plenty of opportunity. I worry about the future not because the average joe isn't coming up with funding but because they aren't voicing there opinions at the rac meetings, getting people appointed to the rac boards that supports thier views, contacting the wildlife board etc.
 

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Ignorance truely is blissful for the ignorant blindeye. Money and political infulence must magically appear for our DWR. I have had a gutfull reading about "poor pitful me" the big bad rich man is ruining and taking away our biggame oppurtunities. Give me a break. I watched a "reality" show I don't normally watch the other day. Celebrities were selling hotdogs for charity. Two teams competed to see who could sell the most for their charity of choice. They were able to sell some to passerbys on the street for $10 to $50 each. The average guys doing what they could to contribute. Then a couple of participants made phone calls to some of their wealthy friends. They showed up and bought hotdogs for $5000 and $10,000 each. Clearly the hotdogs are not worth that kind of money and by them buying a few at high dollars they took oppurtunity away from the average passerbys to buy a hotdog. So what, what a great way to contribute to a charity. Sure the $20 and $50 helped , but the big money is what put them over the top. At what cost? 1 hotdog earned $10,000, at the rate of $20 donations they would have had to sell 500 to make up the difference.

Does anyone see the bigger picture? The **** rich guy is ruining the hotdog/charity business with his big money taking away oppurtunities for the average joe.
 

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Just because someone either can't go or chooses not to go to all of the meetings doesn't mean that the general public should be over looked. I agree more people should voice there opinion and get involved. It is funny though who is fighting the hardest for hunting, and that is the big money groups so how can the avg. joe even compete. I have been to a few meetings out here in Vernal and they don't even seem to care what anyone has to say. But, Pro I am not labeling you with any group I know what you get paid for but you seem alright to me. I think you have both interests in mind and that is alright with me since you are very vocal about it and you probably have a bigger voice in what goes on than I do. So just keep remembering us when you go to battle. I think you do though.
 

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I didn't realize the big money and average joes were in competition.
 

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bwhntr said:
Ignorance truely is blissful for the ignorant blindeye. Money and political infulence must magically appear for our DWR. I have had a gutfull reading about "poor pitful me" the big bad rich man is ruining and taking away our biggame oppurtunities. Give me a break. I watched a "reality" show I don't normally watch the other day. Celebrities were selling hotdogs for charity. Two teams competed to see who could sell the most for their charity of choice. They were able to sell some to passerbys on the street for $10 to $50 each. The average guys doing what they could to contribute. Then a couple of participants made phone calls to some of their wealthy friends. They showed up and bought hotdogs for $5000 and $10,000 each. Clearly the hotdogs are not worth that kind of money and by them buying a few at high dollars they took oppurtunity away from the average passerbys to buy a hotdog. So what, what a great way to contribute to a charity. Sure the $20 and $50 helped , but the big money is what put them over the top. At what cost? 1 hotdog earned $10,000, at the rate of $20 donations they would have had to sell 500 to make up the difference.That is a little different then what is being talked about. Of course you want the most money for charity. You are talking about money being more important than hunting opertunities and that is not right. If they can make as much money by selling 500 more tags as compared to 1 tag, shouldn't they just sell more tags, then more people would have the opertunity to participate in this great sport, and they could then pass it on to the next generation. Money shouldn't be the ultimate goal. Of course they need money to keep it all going, but now I think it is more about greed, but I could be wrong on this, my wife says I am wrong all the time so what ever :oops:

[quote:1s238s4y]
Does anyone see the bigger picture? The **** rich guy is ruining the hotdog/charity business with his big money taking away oppurtunities for the average joe.[/quote:1s238s4y]

I don't
 

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Bwhntr.

It isn't the big money that is bad it is when the focus becomes the money and the score of the antlers and getting that score at all costs that becomes bad. Someone donating tens of thousands of dollars isn't bad for the sport but a person who's only focus is on getting a 200" buck at the expense of other hunters is, regardless of how much money that person may donate.
 

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NOt to hijack or get off track of pros subject, but does anybody know what the status of the INFORMATION propsed at the Rac's for the deer amnagement plans? Is it being discussed by any of the affluent or influential groups or people that I/we could talk with? I would like to have input on this even if it is just me in a corner of a packed room giving my humble opinion.
 

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I believe it a group effort that requires all. More participation and input at your local RACs all the way up to the legislator. Sorry to be the one to let you in on a well know secret, it takes money and political pull to balance the oppurtunities of hunting. It is what it is, this wonderful state of oppurtunity and great hunting doesn't come cheap or easy.
 

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Longfeather said:
Bwhntr.

It isn't the big money that is bad it is when the focus becomes the money and the score of the antlers and getting that score at all costs that becomes bad. Someone donating tens of thousands of dollars isn't bad for the sport but a person who's only focus is on getting a 200" buck at the expense of other hunters is regardless of how much money that person may donate.
If I am donating $10,000 for a hot dog, I might want the biggest one in the pot with a little extra mustard. I don't see the problem. I understand the big money donations want to hunt a big animal...small price to pay in my opinion. It seems to me there are some pretty stinkin big animals being killed by Sportsman tag holders as well.
 

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proutdoors said:
I find it ironic
You know what I find ironic? The fact that you are trying to take away opportunity from hunters with your "fixation" on trophies yet you consistently put out this sells-pitch that you are tryihng to assure a future of hunting for your kids. That's ironic.

As far as what I have done for wildife and our future is concerned, well...let me just say that I don't need to pimp my efforts like you and SFW. Every year of my entire life i have spent countless hours volunteering time and money towards improving Utah's habitat. I bet I have doubled the amount of volunteer time I have spent in my lifetime compared to you...just because I wasn't at your sheep transplant doesn't mean jack. I also voice my opinions loudly to RAC members and DWR biologists regularly...I don't need to attend every RAC meeting to do that. Neither does anybody else.

What I find totally ironic and sickening is that whenever work is done, SFW and guys like you are sure serious about getting your face seen by the public. Why? So, you can get some kind of special treatment for "all the work" you do. True sportsmen? I don't think so.

Ironic most of all, though, is that the apathy Pro talks about comes from the inability of many to hunt.
 

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That was uncalled for Wyoming. He wasn't "pimping" but mearly pointing out the fact that he had a great time doing what he loves and thought by chance that someone on a "Wildlife" forum might find it interesting.

You two just fight each other to fight. I try to find NO enemies on this sight. It makes life a lot more livable. I suggest that we just point out our thoughts and leave the attacks out.
 

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bwhntr said:
Longfeather said:
Bwhntr.

It isn't the big money that is bad it is when the focus becomes the money and the score of the antlers and getting that score at all costs that becomes bad. Someone donating tens of thousands of dollars isn't bad for the sport but a person who's only focus is on getting a 200" buck at the expense of other hunters is regardless of how much money that person may donate.
If I am donating $10,000 for a hot dog, I might want the biggest one in the pot with a little extra mustard. I don't see the problem. I understand the big money donations want to hunt a big animal...small price to pay in my opinion. It seems to me there are some pretty stinkin big animals being killed by Sportsman tag holders as well.
That's called selling out. That is fine if you want to be a sell out, but wildlife managers should'nt be sell outs.

Also the problem isn't them wanting the biggest hot dog, it is wanting it at the expense of others that is the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
wyoming2utah said:
proutdoors said:
I find it ironic
You know what I find ironic? The fact that you are trying to take away opportunity from hunters with your "fixation" on trophies yet you consistently put out this sells-pitch that you are tryihng to assure a future of hunting for your kids. That's ironic.

As far as what I have done for wildife and our future is concerned, well...let me just say that I don't need to pimp my efforts like you and SFW. Every year of my entire life i have spent countless hours volunteering time and money towards improving Utah's habitat. I bet I have doubled the amount of volunteer time I have spent in my lifetime compared to you...just because I wasn't at your sheep transplant doesn't mean jack. I also voice my opinions loudly to RAC members and DWR biologists regularly...I don't need to attend every RAC meeting to do that. Neither does anybody else.

What I find totally ironic and sickening is that whenever work is done, SFW and guys like you are sure serious about getting your face seen by the public. Why? So, you can get some kind of special treatment for "all the work" you do. True sportsmen? I don't think so.

Ironic most of all, though, is that the apathy Pro talks about comes from the inability of many to hunt.
What opportunity have I 'taken' away?

I'll take your BET! What are we betting? Talk is cheap cowboy, you made the bold statement and bet! Bring it on! I had NO intention of talking about the sheep deal, but when you felt the need to widen the division among hunters with your STUPID thread, I just wanted to point out the lack of fore sight and lack of action by MOST on your side of the issue. Notice how I said MOST. You may/may not put time in the field. I am saying most 'opportunity' advocates DO NOT!

I haven't posted any of the pictures from the last few days, so don't make the FALSE accusations about me doing this for the publicity. Although, SFW SHOULD show what they are doing, so people like you are 'exposed' for your blatant half-truths/lies about what SFW and others are doing and the OPPORTUNITY they create.

The apathy is NOT from "lost opportunity", the lost opportunity is a result of APATHY. How was the opportunity 'lost'? You look at the outcome and blame those trying to fix it, instead of looking at what caused it in the first place. And guess what, it was NOT SFW. It was lose of habitat and a reduction in animals, it was more demand than supply, it was hunters having an 'out-dated' mentality of just keep things as they were in 1950. Newsflash, we will NEVER have hunting like the 1950's ever again, and that is NOT because of SFW, but because of changed times/environment/lost habitat. I say the APATHY is a result of MOST hunters having no clue about what it takes to put healthy herds on the ground and at huntable numbers. Deer/elk/moose/bighorns don't just SHOW UP in great numbers. It takes work and MONEY, lots of MONEY in todays world. Like it or not, that is reality!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
HOGAN said:
Balance! :shock:
100% correct. Balance is the key. That is what I have been saying for months now. I only see/hear ONE side wanting only their way, and guess what, it is NOT the trophy hunter side. :?
 

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proutdoors said:
I'll take your BET! What are we betting? Talk is cheap cowboy, you made the bold statement and bet! Bring it on!

I haven't posted any of the pictures from the last few days, so don't make the FALSE accusations about me doing this for the publicity. Although, SFW SHOULD show what they are doing, so people like you are 'exposed' for your blatant half-truths/lies about what SFW and others are doing and the OPPORTUNITY they create.

It was lose of habitat and a reduction in animals, it was more demand than supply, it was hunters having an 'out-dated' mentality of just keep things as they were in 1950. Newsflash, we will NEVER have hunting like the 1950's ever again, and that is NOT because of SFW, but because of changed times/environment/lost habitat. I say the APATHY is a result of MOST hunters having no clue about what it takes to put healthy herds on the ground and at huntable numbers. Deer/elk/moose/bighorns don't just SHOW UP in great numbers. It takes work and MONEY, lots of MONEY in todays world. Like it or not, that is reality!
1) I worked voluntarily for two summers for the USFS...full time. I also have come from a family of biologists where opportunities to help are often...you are going to have a difficult time beating me.

2) the opportunity they "create" is minimal to the opportunity they have taken away!

3) Loss of habitat and a reduction of animals had nothing to do with the restrictions in elk hunting that have eliminated so many tags....loss of habitat nad reduction of animals will have nothing to do with SFW's attempt at further restricting deer hunters with their new attempt at restricting tags to grow bigger deer.

4) Money is important...but we don't need to limit hunters and sell conservation tags to get it.
 

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proutdoors said:
HOGAN said:
Balance! :shock:
100% correct. Balance is the key. That is what I have been saying for months now. I only see/hear ONE side wanting only their way, and guess what, it is NOT the trophy hunter side. :?
HMMMM who is it at the RAC meetings that want to make more LE units? and who is complaining about the lack of big bucks? who wants to reduce tags so there are bigger big bucks? who wants to break the state up into 29 units and micromange hunters? Who doesn't want to extend the Southeastern rifle hunt to 10 days even though the managment plan calls for it and the herd can handle the pressure? Who is on the RAC boards calling for less deer tags and more restrictions on hunters?

I will tell you who it isn't, it isn't the average joe hunter.

The opportunity crowd see's opportunity threatened and they are defending that opportunity. There can be opportunity and trophy hunting but if all you focus on is trophy hunting that is just as wrong as only focusing on opportunity. The focus is leaning toward the trophy hunter and that is what has so many traditional hunters upset.
 
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