Exactly!! Thank you!
To shoot 300 yards
Just saying, 240gr XTP @1850fps (my favorite hunting load):
100 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is -46.56 inches
150 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is -37.43 inches
300 yard zero: height above LOS at 175 Yards is +18.69 inches
The average Joe thinking he is going to suddenly start tipping deer over at +300 yards is sadly mistaken.
-DallanC
100 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is -46.56 inches
150 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is -37.43 inches
300 yard zero: height above LOS at 175 Yards is +18.69 inches
The average Joe thinking he is going to suddenly start tipping deer over at +300 yards is sadly mistaken.
-DallanC
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
You mean that just because I put a 3x9 scope onto my ML that I can't expect to kill deer and elk at 600 yards like I do with my centerfire?
I can't wait until next years ML season. You are going to see hunters out there with target turrets where they can dial in the bullet drop and expect to be the great white hunter while they are shooting at deer and elk over 300 yards away.
It is a sad day for muzzle loader hunters but I plan on putting a nice scope on my inline and take advantage of the new regs. But then I know what a muzzle loader can and can not do at ranges. A deer or elk isn't made out of paper.
I can't wait until next years ML season. You are going to see hunters out there with target turrets where they can dial in the bullet drop and expect to be the great white hunter while they are shooting at deer and elk over 300 yards away.
It is a sad day for muzzle loader hunters but I plan on putting a nice scope on my inline and take advantage of the new regs. But then I know what a muzzle loader can and can not do at ranges. A deer or elk isn't made out of paper.
Please don't try and prove your point with actual facts and data Dallan! :shock: I would much rather rely on my firmly held beliefs and bias.
Don't stop there though, please show the impact of wind on that load. At 300 yards and a 15-20 mph cross wind, you might just shoot into the wrong canyon. Of course I'm using hyperbole there, but only a little bit.
Don't stop there though, please show the impact of wind on that load. At 300 yards and a 15-20 mph cross wind, you might just shoot into the wrong canyon. Of course I'm using hyperbole there, but only a little bit.
240gr XTP @ 2130fps (my favorite hunting load)
150 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is 28.0" = 9.3 moa.
300 yard shot + dial turret to 9.25 moa + prone + bipod = slam dunk easy shot = dead deer
150 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is 28.0" = 9.3 moa.
300 yard shot + dial turret to 9.25 moa + prone + bipod = slam dunk easy shot = dead deer
My grandson shot his first antelope with that firearm this fall; 175 yards, bang flop.
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Long distance shooting with a muzzy, or handgun, or shotgun is complicated. I recommend a guy use outdoor skills and try to get closer than 300 yards.
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and that all plays out while I'm quietly working my way across the canyon to get a closer shot, only to hear a shot from 200 yards behind me. I better start wearing my orange. Circus gates have opened. I bet we see a lot of ML sold and some harder to draw tags. Thank you WB for listening to the racs.240gr XTP @ 2130fps (my favorite hunting load)
150 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is 28.0" = 9.3 moa.
300 yard shot + dial turret to 9.25 moa + prone + bipod = slam dunk easy shot = dead deer
If you don't think guys will buy this to capitalize on LE ML hunts, I believe you are wrong.
Not to mention, there are much more affordable custom ML. You can build them for $1000. I have seen some wicked ML shoot 200 grains.
And the average guy can buy an Encore or Triumph and shoot 300. He can even get a $5 ballistic calculator on his phone. Not to mention how many people are comfortable with hold over.
Not saying it is the end all... But I am saying you will see the amount of 200+ yard KILLS, not shots, more than double. GS isn't the big impact here, LE is.
The scary thing is the guy wearing camo with no scope that loves the thrill and chase of getting within 50, now dealing with a cross canyon shot of 250+ coming his way. So if your data is saying these shots will be big misses, they can also be lethal.... to other hunters. That has been my primary fear of this. No orange required.
The fact you understand that means you are not the "average joe". Anybody that understands the above could be doing the same thing with a 1x or Vernier sight already.240gr XTP @ 2130fps (my favorite hunting load)
150 yard zero: Drop at 300 yards is 28.0" = 9.3 moa.
300 yard shot + dial turret to 9.25 moa + prone + bipod = slam dunk easy shot = dead deer
-DallanC
There are literally free programs all over the internet and apps for your phone for this. It doesn't take much.The fact you understand that means you are not the "average joe". Anybody that understands the above could be doing the same thing with a 1x or Vernier sight already.
-DallanC
the same goes with rifle hunt, so i guess you better stay home if your so scared.
The scary thing is the guy wearing camo with no scope that loves the thrill and chase of getting within 50, now dealing with a cross canyon shot of 250+ coming his way. So if your data is saying these shots will be big misses, they can also be lethal.... to other hunters. That has been my primary fear of this. No orange required.
dosent that gunwerks muzzle loader use smokeless powder
I can't wait to get me a cannon muzzie and 24X mil dot scope and shoot them buggers out at 1,000 yards.. ;-)
Yes, and I'm the author of one of the most popular softwares out there. I can tell you flat out by the number of emails with questions I get weekly, alot of guys that even bother to get the software still don't understand ballistics, MOA and the effects of gravity on a trajectory.There are literally free programs all over the internet and apps for your phone for this. It doesn't take much.
-DallanC
I know most people don't understand ballistics worth a hoot. I can't tell you the questions I get from friends that are hunters and are pretty clueless. However that is the way it is. I love it when I start talking about mil-dots to people who supposedly know what they are doing and their eyes glass over...I try to stay with folks that reload because they tend to understand more of what a rifle or bullet is capable of doing. I have a few friends that I would honestly be very concerned about going big game hunting with.Yes, and I'm the author of one of the most popular softwares out there. I can tell you flat out by the number of emails with questions I get weekly, alot of guys that even bother to get the software still don't understand ballistics, MOA and the effects of gravity on a trajectory.
-DallanC
LOL... and we all know or have seen people at the range with center fire rifles that you know darn well couldnt hit a deer at 200 yards.
-DallanC
-DallanC
Holdover is hardly the issue. If that were all we had to worry about then I agree with a little time on the range and a ballistic calculator guys could become very proficient out to 300 yards. The problem is horizontal correction, not vertical. Muzzleloaders perform nothing like modern rifles in this regard.
At 300 yards, a 290 grain Barnes Spitfire (one of the best BC's available in MZ bullets) shot at 2000 f/s moves 22.8" in a 10 mph crosswind, 34.3" at 15 mph and 45.7" at 20 mph. How many guys can accurately dope the wind and make the necessary calculations for that shot? How many even realize they need to?
How many guys will take the time to build a load that will provide consistent groups at 200 yards, let alone 300? How many will chrono their shots so that these calculations have any meaning at all anyway? How many will then test that load against their calculations to ensure that they match? They don't currently do it for their rifles, why would they start now with their muzzleloader? The marketing says its a 300 yard gun...that's all I need to know. Right? All I need to do is throw some pellets down the barrel and use whatever bullet the guy behind the counter suggested and I'm money. Right?
The fact is...if you're opposed to using a scope, you can still hunt the way you like. There aren't that many muzzleloader tags, you're not likely to have too many issues with other hunters that didn't already exist.
General season success ratios are only slightly better for rifles than they are for muzzleloaders, even if they rose to the same level as rifles it would be statistically insignificant. The spread is wider on LE hunts, but when success ratios are north of 70%, we're probably looking at the wrong issue anyway. Besides, I doubt we see a huge jump as result of the change in regulations...all of the others disadvantages of using a muzzleloader still exist.
At 300 yards, a 290 grain Barnes Spitfire (one of the best BC's available in MZ bullets) shot at 2000 f/s moves 22.8" in a 10 mph crosswind, 34.3" at 15 mph and 45.7" at 20 mph. How many guys can accurately dope the wind and make the necessary calculations for that shot? How many even realize they need to?
How many guys will take the time to build a load that will provide consistent groups at 200 yards, let alone 300? How many will chrono their shots so that these calculations have any meaning at all anyway? How many will then test that load against their calculations to ensure that they match? They don't currently do it for their rifles, why would they start now with their muzzleloader? The marketing says its a 300 yard gun...that's all I need to know. Right? All I need to do is throw some pellets down the barrel and use whatever bullet the guy behind the counter suggested and I'm money. Right?
The fact is...if you're opposed to using a scope, you can still hunt the way you like. There aren't that many muzzleloader tags, you're not likely to have too many issues with other hunters that didn't already exist.
General season success ratios are only slightly better for rifles than they are for muzzleloaders, even if they rose to the same level as rifles it would be statistically insignificant. The spread is wider on LE hunts, but when success ratios are north of 70%, we're probably looking at the wrong issue anyway. Besides, I doubt we see a huge jump as result of the change in regulations...all of the others disadvantages of using a muzzleloader still exist.
Think of it this way, they'll take longer shots which means they miss and rarely hit the target and that means that they'll actually kill fewer deer. When you view it that way then it seems to be a good idea.
More guys know how to shoot farther than some are giving credit for. If a guy that was limited to 150 is now shooting at 200+ then he increased his range by 30%. That is a big deal in hunting. That creates a different hunt than what we have experienced in the past.
Success rates might not change much, but the success of killing the better animals will surely increase.
In the end, it seems funny that some admit they have never shot longer-range (300+) with an ML, but they scoff at the guys who have. I have shot long range to 400 yards. Yep, the drop is measured in feet. But an 18 power scope makes it a possibility. I'd never shoot at an animal that far away, but many guys will.
Obviously each side has its position on the subject, but that does not matter now. The cat is out of the bag. I imagine I'll stick with my open-sight, roundball gun and compete with masses of magnifying scopes. Or maybe I'll pull out the scoped ML......
Success rates might not change much, but the success of killing the better animals will surely increase.
In the end, it seems funny that some admit they have never shot longer-range (300+) with an ML, but they scoff at the guys who have. I have shot long range to 400 yards. Yep, the drop is measured in feet. But an 18 power scope makes it a possibility. I'd never shoot at an animal that far away, but many guys will.
Obviously each side has its position on the subject, but that does not matter now. The cat is out of the bag. I imagine I'll stick with my open-sight, roundball gun and compete with masses of magnifying scopes. Or maybe I'll pull out the scoped ML......
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
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