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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Think? No, I know...just like I have said many times. Utah has been pumping out more record book animals than any other state...even your Arizona can't keep up. Yet, you want to change the whole system...sounds stupid to me!
 

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wyoming2utah said:
Think? No, I know...just like I have said many times. Utah has been pumping out more record book animals than any other state...even your Arizona can't keep up. Yet, you want to change the whole system...sounds stupid to me!
Yet another flat-out lie! What is your deal? You for some reason feel the need to LIE, not sure why. Who has advocated changing the "whole system"? Not me, that is for certain. We want to 'tweak' a few things on FIVE of 28 LE units, I hardly consider that "changing the whole system", to say it is "sounds stupid to me".

You have credited the spike tags as the reason for these big bulls, yet the BIGGEST bulls killed so far this year have come from the Pahvant and SW Desert, two units that do NOT issue spike tags. How can this be possible?

Oh, and Arizona is not 'mine', that would be great if it were though. I did talk over dinner with one of the top outfitters from Arizona a couple of weeks ago. He was very helpful in giving me some insight into the MANY different methods of game management out there. I realize that since he isn't a 'educated expert', you will dismiss his many hours in the field in many different states, but I found his observations to be very insightful and benifical to me.

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
No, I haven't credited spike tags as the reason we have big bulls...another "flat-out" lie...I am not sure why you feel the need to lie. I credit the limited number of tags for our big bulls...

...also, doesn't your proposal include eliminating spike tags on these five units: North Cache, Wasatch, Nebo, Fish Lake, and LaSal. And, introducing spike spike tags to the following five units: San Juan, Monroe, Pahvant, Pansagaunt, and SW Desert? So, doesn't that mean a change of management on at least 10 units? Hmmm...why do you feel the need to lie?
 

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We have tossed about the idea of adding spike tags to five 'new' areas, but it has not been agreed upon, nor PROPOSED, so no lying. Good try though. :wink:

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Utah has been pumping out more record book animals than any other state...even your Arizona can't keep up.
Wyo2ut, if you look at the chart listed in the article then it shows that from 2000 to 2006 then 48 record bulls were killed in Utah and 39 in Arizona. Utah is only ahead by 9 bulls. Look at the amount of big bull permits that Arizona gives compared to Utah. They give out double the number of tags, but yet they are only 9 bulls behind. YES Utah is a great state for producing big bulls but dont discredit Arizona that much. If Arizona gave out as many tags as Utah then what would the chart look like for Arizona? Arizona gives way more tags than Utah, but yet they are killing about just as many record bulls. WHY??? Because they dont hunt them with a rifle during the rut.
 

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And......they give out alot more primitive weapon tags percentage wise, which lowers the success rates. The record book animals mentioned are B&C ONLY, include P&Y and smokepole entries and see who has more. Utah has the biggest bulls on the planet, but at what cost to the 'average hunter'? By simply moving the rifle hunt out of the rut, giving a higher percentage of tag allotments to primitive weapons, and eliminating the killing of baby male elk, Utah could put even MORE elk in the books, plus allow MORE hunters in Utah to HUNT. I see that as a win/win/win for elk, elk hunters, and the record book clubs. Let's do it!!

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Yep Pro it's about time for us to DO IT!!!!!
 

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weatherby25 said:
Why do we care about having the most elk in the books???
Who wants Arizona or Montana to be 'better' than us? For me, it is nice to know we have big elk. It's kind of a bragging rights thing, although I believe we manage a much larger percentage of the state for the 'books' than needed. I think 8-10 premium units would be plenty, then have the rest of the current LE units be managed for mature bulls rather than 'book' bulls. This would still allow for 'book' bulls to be taken on the 'mature bull units', just not as many as on the 'premium units'. This would enable the elk to still thrive, yet allow for more hunters to enjoy the awesome experience of hunting mature bulls in Utah where they have a good chance of killing a good mature bull.

Oh wait, that is what I400 is all about, my bad. :twisted:

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
yet...we give out almost double the amount of total tags that Arizona does. To me, that is the bottom line...which state truly offers the most opportunity? Utah, hands down...and, we still have more record book animals!
 

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Lets see, we have twice the number of elk, give out one-third the number of mature bull tags, I don't see that as a bargin. We have double the elk, yet only entered 9 more animals in the books. That 'opportunity' you tout is spike tags, where the success rate is less than 15% and requires one to hunt immature animals. You call that a better deal than what Arizona offers, I see it as a wasted 'opportunity' for Utah to offer triple the number of mature bull tags, that would be 'real' opportunity for a 'real' hunt, not an appeasement tag like the spike tags ARE!

weatherby, are you a sports fan? If so, why do you care if 'your' team has a better record than someone else's? In truth, I see it as a measuring stick as to how we are managing our elk to their potential, both in quality and quanity.

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yet...we give out almost double the amount of total tags that Arizona does. To me, that is the bottom line...which state truly offers the most opportunity? Utah, hands down...and, we still have more record book animals!
Wrong again Wyo2ut, Arizona gives out way more opportunity that Utah does. Arizona gives out double the amount of tags and they kill almost as many bulls as Utah
 

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weatherby, are you a sports fan? If so, why do you care if 'your' team has a better record than someone else's? In truth, I see it as a measuring stick as to how we are managing our elk to their potential, both in quality and quanity.
Now that makes sense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Pro, I believe Utah could and should give out more LE tags...but, I believe that Arizona sacrifices way too much general season opportunity. Arizona's elk population numbers around 35,000...Utah's population numbers around 64,000. If Utah turned the entire state into a limited entry style of management, we would nearly double the number of record book bulls of Arizona. The reason we don't have more record book bulls is because Utah offers a lot of general season tags--both spike tags (11,000) and any-bull tags (12,300) as well as unlimited general season archery tags. That is the beauty of our system...we can offer general season opportunity and trophy opportunity. Also, in a time when hunting numbers continue to drop and we lose more and more hunters annually, general season opportunity is vital and the best way we can recruit new hunters.

Coyote, you need to check your facts because you are dead wrong.
 

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Coyote, you need to check your facts because you are dead wrong.
haha, no wyo2ut you are wrong, coyote is right haha. Arizona gives more Big bull tags that Utah does. They have less elk and kill only 9 less record book bulls. You need to get your facts straight. Im not talking about Spike tags and Anybulls tags. Im talking about LE bull elk tags
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
coyoteslayer said:
Wrong again Wyo2ut, Arizona gives out way more opportunity that Utah does. Arizona gives out double the amount of tags and they kill almost as many bulls as Utah
This is what you said. What you said is wrong. Utah gives out more tags than Arizona, and Utah kills more bulls than Arizona. Sorry, but I can't read what you don't write! There is no way for me to decipher what you mean if you don't write it...duh!

You said nothing about LE tags or big bull tags.
 

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Wyo2ut, if you look at the chart listed in the article then it shows that from 2000 to 2006 then 48 record bulls were killed in Utah and 39 in Arizona. Utah is only ahead by 9 bulls. Look at the amount of big bull permits that Arizona gives compared to Utah. They give out double the number of tags, but yet they are only 9 bulls behind. YES Utah is a great state for producing big bulls but dont discredit Arizona that much. If Arizona gave out as many tags as Utah then what would the chart look like for Arizona? Arizona gives way more tags than Utah, but yet they are killing about just as many record bulls. WHY??? Because they dont hunt them with a rifle during the rut.
I figured you already read what I wrote before but I guess I need to make it simpler for you
 
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