[Vanilla]

I don't think Quin held this team back.

I think your guess is probably correct, and I agree with it, but we will never know.

Do you know what we do know for sure, however? He certainly didn't push them over the hump into title contention either. So if making the playoffs and getting bounced early is where some Jazz fans set the bar for satisfaction, then no changes are necessary. I don't mind them swinging for the fences, even if it means they fall on their face, because being in the lottery the next couple years is likely better for the future than getting bounced in the 1st round the next couple years again.

 

[RandomElk16]

I think your guess is probably correct, and I agree with it, but we will never know.

Do you know what we do know for sure, however? He certainly didn't push them over the hump into title contention either. So if making the playoffs and getting bounced early is where some Jazz fans set the bar for satisfaction, then no changes are necessary. I don't mind them swinging for the fences, even if it means they fall on their face, because being in the lottery the next couple years is likely better for the future than getting bounced in the 1st round the next couple years again.

In the end I think it comes down to butts in seats. The Jazz's absolute peak as a franchise (90's) still resulted in them falling short of a championship. While championship aspirations should be a thing, Jazz fans have to "like" their team. I think the focus should be "How do we build a team that can contend, but that are fans are also proud to watch?"

As a non-Jazz fan, I feel they have actually navigated that second point pretty well. Jazz fans want to win, but they for the most part don't seem to hate this team. So I don't know what is next. Is "hope" the goal so you rebuild and create potentially false hope/excitement for a few years than do it again?

 

[2full]

I think Quin is a very good coach. Will be interesting to see who they replace him with. Don't think he wanted to be part of a blow up the team and put it back together. Would have to start at square one all over again. That is always a tough project.

 

[Vanilla]

While winning the championship would be awesome, and I really hope the Jazz figure out a way to make it happen, I don't think it's required to win it to be considered a legitimate contender. Those 90s teams you referenced were contenders. We haven't had one since then. Unless your name is Bill Russell or you were a teammate of Bill Russell's, you lose a lot more than you win when it comes to titles as the measurement. People talk about Jordan as if he never lost a title. Well, he played in the league A LOT more years than the 6 he won titles. So titles can't be the only measuring stick, although getting one would sure be nice!

If this team could make a WCF run, that would satiate almost all Jazz fans. We could call ourselves "contenders" and be happy about it. Another Finals appearance would be awesome, even if they didn't win it all. Utah as exactly one WCF appearance since they were real contenders in the 90s, and I think we can all agree they lucked into that one and got in through the back door. Nobody considered then and certainly won't look back on it now that D-Will and Boozer were leading a title contending team. Make a contender, not a pretender. Get us to the WCF 2-3 times a decade, maybe a Finals appearance, and almost all Jazz fans will be satisfied. You would have a very successful franchise if you did that.

Getting bounced in the 1st round or upset by the Clippers without their best player won't cut it, however. It's better to be in the lottery than in the upper middle.

 

[PBH]

Maybe Dwayne Wade will coach. 🤷‍♂️


I liked Quinn. I'd have liked to see him stay. But I would have to guess that an ownership change to Ryan Smith changed all the long-term philosophies of the [currently] Utah Jazz. Color schemes change. Management change. Coaching change. Potential big-name trades.

I wonder if Las Vegas is looking for an NBA team?

Blow it up.💣

 

[CPAjeff]

Maybe the Jazz could lure the Zen Master Phil Jackson back into coaching . . .

 

[Vanilla]

They could hire him to run the front office. Seemed to work for the Knicks...

 

[caddis8]

What are the trades people are most interested in seeing happen?

I think the head coach needs to be picked first before you worry about trades. There's speculation that Terry Stotts would be strongly considered. I'm not sure that's a good hire, similar to Snyder. He hasn't shown much for playoff winning. That being said, there's a lot of coaches that aren't known for playoff winning.

Stotts had Damian Lillard, maybe there's a play for him in the works, but I doubt that. Lillard is pretty happy in Portland.

Jazz have 3 main weaknesses. Not easily solved, but solveable with a type of player, not necessarily a certain player. The roster, as constructed, was not very versitile. People had roles that were picked specifically for the design. Trouble is, people figued them out pretty easily and the roster couldn't handle the adjustments. I'm not so sure that Quinn wasn't willing to try to react to the adjustments, but he was alsom limited in his ability to adjust because of the roster construction.

Weakness #1- Defense unable to stop the drive on defense. Royce was undersized to guard a 3/4 combo wing guard, Donovan I wonder if he was unwilling or unable, Connoly was too small and slow. Ingles was slow, but he could at least annoy a wingman a bit. Bogey was admirable and actually did a decent job on Luca, but Brunson torched the Jazz at will. A strong wing/combo guard would be a huge help and addition. Bullock from the Mavs would be a good fit.

Weakness #2- Very close to weakness #1. A larger point guard/enforcer. The Jazz absolutely couldn't handle a physical defense that switched, trapped, and bodied up to muck up a game. The team was built for beautiful blender ball, which is beautiful when executed. But when taken away, was dreadful. Jazzmen were wimpy against tougher guards like Brunson (he isn't particularly tall, but he was tough), Dillon Brooks (dude is a chump, but a player like him is much needed). Jazz don't have an enforcer. Ingles was the enforcer. Jazz need an enforcer badly. Draymond Green is a great enforcer.

Weakness #3- A capable small #5. Rudy Gay wasn't it. Paschall might be it, but not sure. A solid center is still very important in the league, but the ability and versatility is important and the Jazz didn't have that. But refer to #1 and #2 for the biggest issues. Rudy's liability was exposed because of the porous perimiter defense which put him out of position trying to guard multiple positions, which he did admirably. Clippers exposed the Jazz, Mavs exploied the exposure. The corner 3 was available because of terrible perimeter defense.

What I don't know is if the team had it in them, but the chemistry was so off that the team wasn't playing for each other, or they simply couldn't do it. Luca is a generational talent, and a tough assignment. But Dallas beat the Jazz without him because of guard play. It felt like the Jazz weren't willing to into the trenches and play hard nosed ball.

 

[Vanilla]

Luca is a generational talent, and a tough assignment. *But Dallas beat the Jazz without him because of guard play. It felt like the Jazz weren't willing to into the trenches and play hard nosed ball.

*multiple times

Jazz lost twice with that generational talent in street clothes.

I think your assessment of the weaknesses are spot on. Can you fix any of that with Rudy and Donovan's contracts still on this team? I suspect the answer to that is "no."

 

[RandomElk16]

You pay $40M a year for a defense only player and the top weakness listed involved defense.

So I agree with Vanilla - gonna be hard to fix that issue with said contracts.

 

[caddis8]

I think your assessment of the weaknesses are spot on. Can you fix any of that with Rudy and Donovan's contracts still on this team? I suspect the answer to that is "no."

I'm not sure "no" is the answer. But with the contract situation the way it is, I would say no is the likely answer. They can't afford another player of the Weakness #1 and #2 that can reliably help. They may uncover a gem in a rookie contract, but I don't think it will be found in the discard pile.

Clarkson can score, but he can't guard a fencepost. That isn't his role though. Curry isn't a strong defender, but he isn't asked to be. He has strong defenders around him to free him up to do what he does best.

Mitchell is a very good player. But he didn't trust the team, or he felt like he had to take the whole team on his shoulders and that's nearly impossible. 4 people can guard 1 person even with mediocre teams. Donovan would take it to the rack, get in trouble, and force a shot or turn it over way too often. Those are highly contested shots, and lower percentage. His assist to turnover ratio wasn't that great and he didn't distrubute the ball well.

Snyder had his issues, and his end of game management was horrendous. But his end of game closing talent may not have supported what he would have liked to do.

 

[caddis8]

You pay $40M a year for a defense only player and the top weakness listed involved defense.

To be clear, the defensive issues weren't because of the defensive specialist. He saved a lot of butts with his defensive ability. I would like him to improve his offensive game. His hands weren't good and he was soft in finishing except for dunks.

 

[Vanilla]

I'm not sure "no" is the answer. But with the contract situation the way it is, I would say no is the likely answer. They can't afford another player of the Weakness #1 and #2 that can reliably help. They may uncover a gem in a rookie contract, but I don't think it will be found in the discard pile.

But with Rudy and Donovan on the team, your only option is the discard pile, though. Jazz are in the tax. They will be able to use their mid-level exception (what they signed Rudy Gay with last year) and vet minimum contracts. Sure, there could be a diamond in the rough out there somewhere that becomes a huge contributor, but that is not likely. Hence, why I said "I suspect the answer to that is 'no.'"

So me saying I suspect and you saying it is likely means we agree! Wouldn't it have been easier to just say that?

 

[Catherder]

A few thoughts;

1. On the new coach, I'm not thrilled with Stotts. His Portland teams were some of the best in offense rating, but consistently near the bottom of the league in defensive rating. Does that sound like a "solution", especially if Gobert is sent on his way? The other names I have heard like Alex Jensen, Jonnie Bryant, Adrian Griffin are all unproven and it is hard to say how they will do. A new coach worked out pretty well for the Celtics this year. Especially if the front office "blows it up" and rebuilds, that may be the way to go.

2. A few trades I have heard worth discussion.

Mitchell to Knicks for Barrett, Quickly, Fournette and a #1. Maybe, but I think we could do better. Maybe the Knicks would toss in an extra #1 for the hometown boy. It wouldn't be a fire sale though.
Mitchell to Heat for Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson, either their backup center or Oladipo and a #1. TBH, I kind of like that one.
Mitchell to Hawks for Hunter, Collins, a #1 and some flotsam. We would have a dynamic frontcourt and our defense would be light years better. Maybe.
Gobert to Hawks for much of the same except it would be Capela and not Collins. Hmmm.
Gobert to Raptors for OG Anuoby and Gary Trent. Maybe, if Mitchell chills. Perimeter defensive upgrade for loss of anchor, but maybe Mitchell can be persuaded to play better D. If Mitchell were indeed a happy camper and team chemistry improved, this could work.

Ive heard a couple more that weren't worth discussing or I forgot about.

I wonder if Las Vegas is looking for an NBA team?

Ugh, who would we name our newly created/uncreated National Parks and monuments after? Phil Lyman and Travis Seegmiller?
Vegas doesn't need the Jazz. They got hockey and football.

 

[caddis8]

So me saying I suspect and you saying it is likely means we agree! Wouldn't it have been easier to just say that?

I cannot agree with an attorney directly. Makes egos too big. 🤣

 

[Vanilla]

Catherder,

I like that we are talking specifics! Those trades are interesting, and I'm waiting on a reply to an email before I can proceed with a project, so here we go! I have got to think the Jazz have sat down and talked with Mitchell about his plans and desires. It's possible he has not been forthright, but I hope they are all communicating about realities here. Same with Gobert, and they have full disclosure that one of these two, if not both, need to go. That is where I base my opinion here:

NYK trade: This one is interesting. Get some young, long wings and a 1st round pick (maybe 2 under your proposal). Knicks draft 11 this year, so a chance for another decent player. Latest ESPN mock draft has NYK taking AJ Griffin there. Another intriguing player, very young but a great shooter. Some injury history, so they'd have to be comfortable. If they threw in the 2nd first round pick, I'd make this trade.

Heat trade: according to ESPN trade machine, that trade doesn't work because of salaries. Heat would have to include about $5 million more in salary coming back to Jazz to make it work.

Hawks trades: I think I'd do either of these trades.

Raptors Trade: Nope. Only person I'm dealing with Raptors is Siakam, and I don't think he's available.

 

[Catherder]

Working on some "boss stuff" and records, so I have a moment too.

1. I heard about that potential Miami trade from the Bleacher report on my phone news feed. They may have thrown in some detritus to get the salaries closer or anticipated a 3 way trade to get it done. Considering Herro was 6th man of year this season, this one intrigues me the most. Not that Herro is as good of scorer as Don or even similar superstar potential, but he is capable offensively and a defensive upgrade. I really thought Oladipo gave the Heat a lift in the postseason and would like to see him with the Jazz.

2. I wouldn't sell Anouby short. Long, athletic wing defender who can get you buckets as well. The problem is the other guys couldn't remain sieves because of the reduced rim protection. Trent is not chopped liver either.

3. On the Knicks trade, I have heard next years #1, but I suppose that is open to negotiations.

 

[PBH]

Chicago may be renaming the Sears Tower to the Gobert Tower.

Makes you wonder if the Jazz trying to trade Gobert for weeks had anything to do with Snyder turning down his contract, and resigning.

#RGGSENM

 

[Vanilla]

There are only a few people that know the answer to why Quin doesn't want to coach this team anymore, but we know for sure that he does not want to coach this team. Reasons at this point really don't matter, if we're being honest.

As for the Bulls trade:

Rudy for Vucevic and Patrick Williams? I'm guessing the Jazz would ask for a pick in addition as well. Not a terrible trade, but some of the others Catherder presented may be better. It takes two to tango, however. And I've said for multiple years on this forum talking about the Donovan and Rudy dynamic that the organization would pick Donovan over Rudy. This should not be a suprise to anyone. Rudy is elite at what he does, but it isn't good enough to move the needle for this team. Get what you can get out of him, get the best coach you can, and see what you can do.

*Edit: and just so people don't think this is new that the Jazz are considering trading Rudy, here is an article from over a week ago on our own KSL talking about it.

Report: Utah Jazz 'Weighing Trade Possibilities' For Rudy Gobert

Bleacher Report's Jake Fischer reported that the Utah Jazz are "weighing trade possibilities" for Rudy Gobert."

kslsports.com

 

[Vanilla]

I wonder if Las Vegas is looking for an NBA team?

Blow it up.💣

New billionaire LeBron says he wants Vegas team

LeBron James said he wants to own an NBA team in Las Vegas in the latest episode of his talk show, "The Shop."

www.espn.com

LeBron James owning the Las Vegas Jazz? PBH might be onto something here...