For some its just the thrill of the kill, or bragging rights on a big one. Most know about the fines and everything else, but that still dont stop them. I look at some of the fines they hand out, and still dont think the penalties are stiff enough. Maybe if it cost them tens of thousands of dollars, things would change. And then again maybe not.

 

Because they think they are better than the law or it doesn't apply to them.

 

So went hunting this weekend for deer...ran into a DNR lady going around checking licenses/permits. Noticed a buck in the back of her truck and a rifle in the back window of her truck...Figured she caught a poacher...

Maybe it was hit by a car. You are assuming it was a poacher, why not assume a more positive reason? Or just ask if it was confiscated due to a wildlife violation?

-DallanC

 

My guess is that everyone is different. I've known some guys that would be considered poachers by taking game that they had no tag for. For some of them, it was an issue of missing the buck and hitting a doe behind it. For these guys, it was making a mistake by someone that normally follows all game laws. There was no other motivating factor.

I've known guys that took deer - usually a doe or two - in January or February - quite literally, to feed their families. These guys would go out at night with .22 and shoot a doe or two near by. These guys were motivated by desperation.

One of my high school football coaches operated an illegal guiding service, where he'd charge enormous fees for out of state clients to shoot bighorn sheep and mountain goats - often times getting his clients to kill until they found the "just right" trophy. His motivation was money.

I knew ranchers that regularly would shoot pronghorn any time of year to provide food for their migrant workers. The animals grazed their land year round and the rancher figured he fed them and if he could use them, then that was a fair enough trade off. These guys were motivated out of necessity and practicality.

I've known guys that would take game animals - mostly elk or pronghorn - just because they were there and they enjoyed hunting and didn't want to be bothered with tags. These guys thought they were above the law.

I've known guys that have filled cow elk tags by shooting trophy bulls, just to get over on the system. Their motivation was one of arrogance.

Its like any other criminal act - each individual has their own motivation.

 

So went hunting this weekend for deer...ran into a DNR lady going around checking licenses/permits. Noticed a buck in the back of her truck and a rifle in the back window of her truck...Figured she caught a poacher...

Maybe it was hit by a car. You are assuming it was a poacher, why not assume a more positive reason? Or just ask if it was confiscated due to a wildlife violation?

-DallanC

+1

 

So went hunting this weekend for deer...ran into a DNR lady going around checking licenses/permits. Noticed a buck in the back of her truck and a rifle in the back window of her truck...Figured she caught a poacher...

Maybe it was hit by a car. You are assuming it was a poacher, why not assume a more positive reason? Or just ask if it was confiscated due to a wildlife violation?

-DallanC

+1

If her name was Cory she is my renter and she does depredation and road kill pick up. She also has a tag and does get to do a little bit of hunting. That might have been her own rifle.

 

It was up in the avintaquin/wasatch area. Didnt pay attention to names, it did run my mind that possibly she could hunt as well. also road kill passed my mind but there was plenty doe roadkill that i saw on the way up and they were not in her truck(also the rifle made me think it had been poached since it was in the back of her truck) But ya the 3 cases did pass my mind and i didnt really think to ask her. But poaching seems to be kinda big out that way as they have signs around there saying to report poachers...Whatever they case poachers suck even if that buck in the back of her truck wasn't poached.

 

On why people poach I have a little theory:

"There is a line of demarcation well defined between the Lord's territory and the Devil's territory. Cross over to the devils territory just 1 inch and you lose your ability to reason" -George Albert Smith-

In 2009 we lost a lot of ethical hunters to the 3 day season. Hunters stayed afield several days after the 3 day season had ended and many of them had animals hanging in camp. Late retrievals, youth hunters with extended seasons and excuses of animals being aged for meat quality were hard to prosecute against, even with retinal measurements.

This year with Option 2 inforce tags were allocated like musical chairs and many hunters either did not draw, drew less preferable units or drew for seperate units. When logic and reason are in proximity to validation, illegal acts tempt a large population. What would have been perfectly legal last year is now illegal. The Region that you could have hunted in last year is now seperated into several units. Not drawing a tag brings fraustration, not hunting your familiar area also sucks, having a tag different than the rest of the family is a pain. This emotion tempts individuals into making bad decisions. Where something used to be allowed, but no longer is people lose sight that hunting is a priveledge and not a right. People become hot headed and feel entitlement towards their traditional values. Once they start breaking the small laws it only gets worse...

 

Good point Nambaster...I guess it really comes down to why people do or don't follow laws in the first place.

 

My guess is that everyone is different. I've known some guys that would be considered poachers by taking game that they had no tag for. For some of them, it was an issue of missing the buck and hitting a doe behind it. For these guys, it was making a mistake by someone that normally follows all game laws. There was no other motivating factor.

I've known guys that took deer - usually a doe or two - in January or February - quite literally, to feed their families. These guys would go out at night with .22 and shoot a doe or two near by. These guys were motivated by desperation.

One of my high school football coaches operated an illegal guiding service, where he'd charge enormous fees for out of state clients to shoot bighorn sheep and mountain goats - often times getting his clients to kill until they found the "just right" trophy. His motivation was money.

I knew ranchers that regularly would shoot pronghorn any time of year to provide food for their migrant workers. The animals grazed their land year round and the rancher figured he fed them and if he could use them, then that was a fair enough trade off. These guys were motivated out of necessity and practicality.

I've known guys that would take game animals - mostly elk or pronghorn - just because they were there and they enjoyed hunting and didn't want to be bothered with tags. These guys thought they were above the law.

I've known guys that have filled cow elk tags by shooting trophy bulls, just to get over on the system. Their motivation was one of arrogance.

Its like any other criminal act - each individual has their own motivation.

Is it poaching? Yes. Is it Illegal? Yes. If i were a Game Warden and caught someone doing it, would i turn my head and look the other way? Absolutely.

 

Is it poaching? Yes. Is it Illegal? Yes. If i were a Game Warden and caught someone doing it, would i turn my head and look the other way? Absolutely.

So... If the guy goes to the grocery store and steals a pot roast, some steaks, a few pounds of ground beef, and whatever else he thinks he needs.... that's okay too?

If there is a need, there are other ways to feed the family besides turning to crime. Yes, poaching is a crime.

 

Is it poaching? Yes. Is it Illegal? Yes. If i were a Game Warden and caught someone doing it, would i turn my head and look the other way? Absolutely.

So... If the guy goes to the grocery store and steals a pot roast, some steaks, a few pounds of ground beef, and whatever else he thinks he needs.... that's okay too?

If there is a need, there are other ways to feed the family besides turning to crime. Yes, poaching is a crime.

There is a list that you can also get on to get depredated deer that are harvested by the fish and game. They have .22's with supressors and head shot them. I know because in 1995 we got one because no one wanted to eat them. It was pretty cool to see all of the equipment that the office used to kill the doe that we got. Back then night vision and surpressors were items of the future. Also depredations hunts are available in most countys but the waiting list and likelyhood of getting called is not very high.

 

My Grandpa "poached" fish like there was no tomorrow. He grew up the son of some very poor dirt farmers in Idaho in a time when you harvested anything and everything you could. I remember fishing with him when I was a kid. I stopped fishing when I'd kept my limit of six fish (My Dad was a stickler on adherence to game laws) and Grandpa didn't stop keeping fish until his creel was completely full (which happened a lot - he was a very good fisherman). His explanation was always something like "I caught Grandma's limit as well. And since we won't get out fishing for the rest of the week, I kept a limit for those days as well." He'd take the fish home and they would be bottled and used throughout the year. It was just fish, and some would say it is different than bigger game. But it was still poaching to me. To him, it was just harvesting what God had provided to feed your family. He also raised beef cows, a few pigs, and chickens that also fed the family. I'm not sure how all that works out. His motivation was one of being raised in a culture of harvest and utility. He never saw it as wrong.

 

Ya, good points as well...I guess with time things have changed from being a hunt for necessity and a hunt as a hobby. And thats why there are laws involved as well.
Theres a guy up in canada that has indian relatives and they have some sort of laws that allow them to make a living off trapping animals(no limits)/live off the animals...He basically lives in the woods and traps during the winters(eats the meat he traps for sustenance)
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheWildNorth
The guy is a bit vulgar at times, but very enjoyable if you like trapping.

So I guess what im trying to say is what I said before...we abide by the laws or we pay the consequences of not abiding be them. Back in old times it was hunt to eat because that was a means to provide food on the table...now we have grocery stories and hunting is a hobby. Anyone claiming their hunting to get meat for their family could just as easily get food stamps to get that food(and thats legal)...dont get me started on food stamps though...too many people abuse those government programs that provide welfare...but i know to some families it helps them get through the days.

 

Its a criminal act, they have a different mindset than what the rest of society has. My best guess is that they havent matured past the 7th grade and they still think its cool to get into trouble. By the way, it is a little bit harder than you make it sound to get a deer permit. As you probably guessed I am one of the unlucky hunters who did not get a deer permit this year.

 

I would be surprised if any CO, unless they caught the poacher in the act, would confiscate any firearms at that time. Seems to me a formal conviction would be required before any punishment were handed down. Not to derail the discussion of why people poach, but do any of you have knowledge of how that whole process works?

 

23-20-1. Enforcement authority of conservation officers -- Seizure and disposition of property.
(1) Conservation officers of the division shall enforce the provisions of this title with the same authority and following the same procedures as other law enforcement officers.
(2) (a) Conservation officers shall seize any protected wildlife illegally taken or held.
(b) (i) Upon determination of a defendant's guilt by the court, the protected wildlife shall be confiscated by the court and sold or otherwise disposed of by the division.
(ii) Proceeds of the sales shall be deposited in the Wildlife Resources Account.
(iii) Migratory wildfowl may not be sold, but shall be given to a charitable institution or used for other charitable purposes.
(3) Materials and devices used for the unlawful taking or possessing of protected wildlife shall be seized, and upon a finding by the court that they were used in the unlawful taking or possessing of protected wildlife, the materials and devices shall be subject to criminal or civil forfeiture under the procedures and substantive protections established in Title 24, Chapter 1, Utah Uniform Forfeiture Procedures Act.
(4) (a) Conservation officers may seize and impound a vehicle used for the unlawful taking or possessing of protected wildlife for any of the following purposes:
(i) to provide for the safekeeping of the vehicle, if the owner or operator is arrested;
(ii) to search the vehicle as provided in Subsection (2)(a) or as provided by a search warrant; or
(iii) to inspect the vehicle for evidence that protected wildlife was unlawfully taken or possessed.
(b) The division shall store any seized vehicle in a public or private garage, state impound lot, or other secured storage facility.
(5) A seized vehicle shall be released to the owner no later than 30 days after the date the vehicle is seized, unless the vehicle was used for the unlawful taking or possessing of wildlife by a person who is charged with committing a felony under this title.
(6) (a) Upon a finding by a court that the person who used the vehicle for the unlawful taking or possessing of wildlife is guilty of a felony under this title, the vehicle may be subject to criminal or civil forfeiture under the procedures and substantive protections established in Title 24, Chapter 1, Utah Uniform Forfeiture Procedures Act.
(b) The owner of a seized vehicle is liable for the payment of any impound fee if the owner used the vehicle for the unlawful taking or possessing of wildlife and is found by a court to be guilty of a violation of this title.
(c) The owner of a seized vehicle is not liable for the payment of any impound fee or, if the fees have been paid, is entitled to reimbursement of the fees paid, if:
(i) no charges are filed or all charges are dropped which involve the use of the vehicle for the unlawful taking or possessing of wildlife;
(ii) the person charged with using the vehicle for the unlawful taking or possessing of wildlife is found by a court to be not guilty; or
(iii) the owner did not consent to a use of the vehicle which violates this chapter.

 

I agree with Chaser; what the law is can be quite different than what is practiced. I have turned in two poachers and neither had anything confiscated even though the one took a 6 pt bull in a LE area with a spike tag, the other one was cited with 6 violations and got little more than a slap on the wrist. This certainly may contribute to the fact that people have no fear of any real consequences as the punishment is often times laughable. I have close relatives who have no issue with trespassing also, it drives me crazy personally and could not do, even out of necessity, but they hardly think twice about it.

 

Sounds like a few C.O.s should be required to read the laws that they are sworn to enforce. It doesn't say that the materials and devices may be seized, but rather that they shall be seized. If the C.O. doesn't seize the equipment, he is derelict in his duties, and is not upholding the law.

 

Not to derail the discussion of why people poach, but do any of you have knowledge of how that whole process works?

i do... :lol: o-||

kind of depends on the seriousness of the crime itself, but for the most part, if they catch you in the act themselves based on a tip or them just doing their job, they will take your weapon, vehicle, animal, and any other evidence you might have in your posession, on the spot. if you get reported on the poaching hotline or something of that nature, they will send out an officer(s) to investigate. if they have enough evidence to support a conviction or have enough probable cause to get a search warrant for houses, businesses, vehicles, etc..., then they will collect all the evidence possible to build their case, then further action will be taken at that time. if found guilty, they will take any and all equipment used in the crime. then it is up to the court/judge/state officers involved, if you get your stuff back or not. sometimes they are willing to bargin down fines, suspensions, jail time, probation periods, with the value of the equipment. its a long, drug out process....

 

Not to derail the discussion of why people poach, but do any of you have knowledge of how that whole process works?

i do... :lol:

kind of depends on the seriousness of the crime itself, but for the most part, if they catch you in the act themselves based on a tip or them just doing their job, they will take your weapon, vehicle, animal, and any other evidence you might have in your posession, on the spot. if you get reported on the poaching hotline or something of that nature, they will send out an officer(s) to investigate. if they have enough evidence to support a conviction or have enough probable cause to get a search warrant for houses, businesses, vehicles, etc..., then they will collect all the evidence possible to build their case, then further action will be taken at that time. if found guilty, they will take any and all equipment used in the crime. then it is up to the court/judge/state officers involved, if you get your stuff back or not. sometimes they are willing to bargin down fines, suspensions, jail time, probation periods, with the value of the equipment. its a long, drug out process....

Inquiring minds are wondering how you know? -Ov-

 

Even after Fishrmn posting the statutes, I am still a bit confused. As the law is written, it seems as though (using 2.b.I) that a judge would need to hand down a conviction before seizure occurs, as detailed in Section 3. Are the rules laid out as posted to be followed in chronological order, or can certain sections or parts be executed out of order?

 

Nope. The seizure should be immediate. The disposition of the property is up to the judge. He could return it to the perp, or let the DWR sell it at auction. If they would always seize, they would at least make it a little bit harder for the perp to do it again very soon.

24-1-17. Disposition and allocation of forfeiture property.
(1) Upon finding that property is subject to forfeiture under this chapter, the court shall order the property forfeited to the state, and the seizing agency shall then:
(a) make the payments as required under this chapter; and
(b) transfer possession, custody, and control of the net forfeiture property or proceeds immediately to the Criminal Forfeiture Restricted Account created under Section 24-1-18.
(2) If the forfeiture arises from any violation of Section 23-20-1 relating to wildlife resources, the court shall:
(a) direct that the legal costs of the forfeiture proceeding be paid to the prosecuting agency; and
(b) direct that the net forfeited property after the legal costs shall be deposited in the Wildlife Resources Account created in Section 23-14-13.
(3) (a) Prior to transferring forfeited property, the seizing agency shall authorize a public or otherwise commercially reasonable sale of that property which is not required by law to be destroyed and that is not harmful to the public.
(b) The proceeds of the forfeited property shall remain segregated from other property, equipment, or assets of the seizing agency until transferred to the state in accordance with this chapter.
(4) From the forfeited property, both currency and the proceeds or revenue from the property, the seizing agency shall:
(a) deduct the seizing agency's direct costs and expenses, as approved by the court, of obtaining and maintaining the property pending forfeiture; and
(b) pay the legal costs to the prosecuting agency for the prosecution of the forfeiture proceeding.
(5) The remaining forfeited property shall then be deposited in the Criminal Forfeiture Restricted Account created in Section 24-1-18.
(6) All property and proceeds awarded to the state through forfeiture proceedings under this chapter shall be deposited in the Criminal Forfeiture Restricted Account created in Section 24-1-18.

 

I know a couple guys that shot two swans at FB claiming they thought they were white geese. The CO took their guns and other gear on the spot, told them they were lucky he didn’t impound their truck. They bought the guns back at an auction many months later.