WOLVES
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I am going to go take pictures of some. Leaving tonight. (After I woop everyone's a$$ in fantasy. :wink: ) If I get any good ones I'll post em up when I return.
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That's funny, I have that photo on my screen saver and I tell everyone that I guy took the picture above Bountiful. :lol:
I do. Wolves are a vital top predator that existed for millenia in our wildlands and forests until we thoughtlessly wiped them out. I for one support the re-introduction and management of wolves into our wilderness areas. I know that gets the veins bulging on the forheads of many big game hunters, but so what. Artificially inflating the herds in the absence of top predators so local wildlife departments can sell more tags is a bad way of doing things in my opinion. How are the herds any different than cattle or sheep if the management objective is to produce as many harvestable animals as possible? Wolves keep the herds more wild and healthy. People pay top dollar to go to alaska and canada to hunt trophy animals where all the top predators are also found, but god forbid they be allowed to exist in Idaho, Montana, or Utah. Why the double standard?
I don't think they should be allowed to populate the whole intermountain west unchecked, but there is a middle ground that I think can be reached. Maybe with specifically outlined wolf management areas like the high uintas wilderness area, book cliffs, boulder mountain, etc.
And you are right, it wasn't a thoughtless slaughter. It was to protect the thoughtless overgrazing of the entire west. Predators had no place in a region designated as nothing more than a huge cattle and sheep ranch. Neither did bison, elk, or deer as all of them were slaughtered without thought or mercy. We saw the error of that in time to save the big game animals, but the predators were always a piece in the puzzle too. They are needed to keep true ecological balance.
And you are right, it wasn't a thoughtless slaughter. It was to protect the thoughtless overgrazing of the entire west. Predators had no place in a region designated as nothing more than a huge cattle and sheep ranch. Neither did bison, elk, or deer as all of them were slaughtered without thought or mercy. We saw the error of that in time to save the big game animals, but the predators were always a piece in the puzzle too. They are needed to keep true ecological balance.
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Seems to me that arguing whether wolves are good or bad is a moot point. They're coming and nothing will change that. What we really need is an intelligent consensus on how to cope with them in Utah. And thanks to the experiences of other states, we're actually in a position to use our heads about this issue instead of getting all emotional about it.
First and foremost, we need to promote state control exactly because it protects our interest in existing big game management objectives. Utah's wolf management plan has an excellent chance of being accepted by the feds once a viable population of wolves is established. Of course, the feds also need to be convinced that we intend to really abide by the plan and that won't happen as long as Utah hunters seem to support S.S.S. because of the perception that federal offenses carry more punitive weight than state offenses.
To help calm all the emotional baggage that goes with wolves, we need to educate ourselves about wolves and understand that Utah is unique. For just one example, we have far less suitable wolf habitat than Wyoming or Idaho. Even after wolves have been reestablished here, the majority of our game animals will never encounter one.
Finally, we need to look at the bigger picture with regard to our big game management philosophy. Due to special interest influences on the wildlife board, we're currently using a ranch management philosophy. There's no place for any predators in that philosophy. Now that's fine for the old boys back east. They don't have much of a choice. But we do and I think we'd do well to consider our options before we just accept rqanch philosophy as the way to go. I mean, given the choice between hunting a wild, predator wary animal and a farm animal, my choice is simple and it doesn't much matter to me how big the antlers are.
First and foremost, we need to promote state control exactly because it protects our interest in existing big game management objectives. Utah's wolf management plan has an excellent chance of being accepted by the feds once a viable population of wolves is established. Of course, the feds also need to be convinced that we intend to really abide by the plan and that won't happen as long as Utah hunters seem to support S.S.S. because of the perception that federal offenses carry more punitive weight than state offenses.
To help calm all the emotional baggage that goes with wolves, we need to educate ourselves about wolves and understand that Utah is unique. For just one example, we have far less suitable wolf habitat than Wyoming or Idaho. Even after wolves have been reestablished here, the majority of our game animals will never encounter one.
Finally, we need to look at the bigger picture with regard to our big game management philosophy. Due to special interest influences on the wildlife board, we're currently using a ranch management philosophy. There's no place for any predators in that philosophy. Now that's fine for the old boys back east. They don't have much of a choice. But we do and I think we'd do well to consider our options before we just accept rqanch philosophy as the way to go. I mean, given the choice between hunting a wild, predator wary animal and a farm animal, my choice is simple and it doesn't much matter to me how big the antlers are.
Hate 'em, hate em', hate em. We already managed to get rid of them once now we have to do it all over again, if we can this time. When you have raised cattle your whole life it really bugs you that someone who doesn't even live where the wolves will be can come in an say here you go have some wolves. They then tell you that you can't protect your cows from them because they are endangered( which is b.s. by the way, they are just wolves from Canada, and they are NOT endangered). I don't care if you think cattle and sheep are not as important as wolves, for some of us they are our living.
This is pure hyperbole of course, but how would you people who work on a computer all day like it if all of a sudden they passed a law saying computer viruses were protected and you just had to let them destroy all your information and crash your computers. Your way of making a living would be in serious trouble.
And I'm tired of typing so I won't even go into the effect on the elk moose and deer herds.That is how I feel and I'm stickin' to it.
This is pure hyperbole of course, but how would you people who work on a computer all day like it if all of a sudden they passed a law saying computer viruses were protected and you just had to let them destroy all your information and crash your computers. Your way of making a living would be in serious trouble.
And I'm tired of typing so I won't even go into the effect on the elk moose and deer herds.That is how I feel and I'm stickin' to it.
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I for one would like to see wolves in suitable habitat here in Utah. I understand the implications to ranchers, farmers, and wildlife. But as it was said earlier, they would need to be managed properly. I don't agree with the explanation of wolves being compared to a computer virus. Little bit of a stretch. IMO if we are just going to eliminate wolves because of cattle/sheep, why don't we just kill of all the animals that could be eating their (sheep & cattle) grazing feed. :roll: I'm sure deer/elk cause problems to ranchers/farmers as well. But through time, I think some middle ground can be found. JMO
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This has always been a funny thread because of the wolf lovers only see one side of the coin and talk about the great wolf as the missing link which it isnt a missing link. How many wolf packs would be suitable for the bookcliffs or the boulder without greatly impacting the deer and elk herds???? Would the DWR loose money because of the wolves impacting herds in those areas. Would the DWR be forced to raise tag fees because they will have to lower permits because they arent reaching objectives.The wolves wouldnt just stay in the bookcliffs and the boulder. They will impact the surrounding areas.
The deer and elk have problems with:
Drought
Loss or habitat
coyotes and mountain lions
road kills
etc
and we have mindless people who think wolves wont have an impact on deer and elk. ScottyP claims that wolves will make deer and elk MORE healthy and wild. People say that wolves only kill the sick and injured. How stupid can people really be. ScottyP even compares Utah to Alaska where habitat is totally different. Alaska has thousands and thousands of unsettled land where the only way to get to remote areas is by boat or small airplane.
Cattle and sheep are more important that wolves. I dont know about you, but I would rather eat a good beef steak then a wolf steak any day
The deer and elk have problems with:
Drought
Loss or habitat
coyotes and mountain lions
road kills
etc
and we have mindless people who think wolves wont have an impact on deer and elk. ScottyP claims that wolves will make deer and elk MORE healthy and wild. People say that wolves only kill the sick and injured. How stupid can people really be. ScottyP even compares Utah to Alaska where habitat is totally different. Alaska has thousands and thousands of unsettled land where the only way to get to remote areas is by boat or small airplane.
ScottyP I also thought this was pretty funny. Yeah elk and deer arent wild anymore because the big bad wolf is gone and the elk and deer and very unhealthy. This fairy tale about wolves only killing the sick and injured is nothing but nonsense. Wolves would starve to death if they only ate the sick and injured.
Cattle and sheep are more important that wolves. I dont know about you, but I would rather eat a good beef steak then a wolf steak any day
I never said anywhere that wolves only kill sick or injured game. That is often the case but they are opportunistic and will chase and kill a healthy animal if that is what is available. Another clarification if I may, I believe that ranchers should have the right to protect their property from predation and that should be written into any local management plan for wolves. Wolves DO keep the herds more healthy and wild by keeping them on the move and thinning out the weaker and slower animals. Yes, there would be an impact on the herds and on hunters, but the DWR's job is NOT to run a ranching outfit for big game hunters-- it is to manage the wildlands of Utah for the people of Utah. And like it or not, the wolves are on the way. Shoot, shovel, and shut up will only get you fined so you might as well accept the inevitable.
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:shock: :roll: :roll:
I don't think ScottyP should be associated with any words like "mindless" or "stupid". Maybe you were not specifically trying to say that about him, but I would shy away from associating those terms with him, because he has proven to be a useful asset to this forum and many others. JMO
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scottyP, since Im not suppose to associate mindless or stupid with you and for the record I wasnt. Anyways Scottp the wise, how do you think the DWR should manage their deer and elk herds? I do mind wolves coming here but I want to shoot a wolf and get him stuffed. I think that would be awesome. There have been study after study done that wolves kill for fun and they kill deer and leave them lay when they are training their pups. Coyotes do the same thing with sheep. In Jackson hole the calf elk population has been greatly reduced and not many calves are growing to adulthood to replace the older elk in the herd. I guess in your eyes this is a great thing. I think that any wolf outside of Yellowstone should be fair game. You mention that wolves help keep the elk wild because right now the mountains are a petting zoo :lol: I think we should hunt the wolves to keep them wild and healthy too.
Maybe we could have one pack in the Bookcliffs and everything else is fair game. We will limit the pack only to a certain number.
Lastly, scottyP, the wise, how will the people of Utah benefit from wolves? Because they will get to hear them howl??? Who will pay the ranchers for the cows they loose to wolves. I hope you are writing out a check right now. :lol: People were mad that a bear killed a little boy in AF canyon. I wonder how crazy they will get when a wolf kills someone.
Maybe we could have one pack in the Bookcliffs and everything else is fair game. We will limit the pack only to a certain number.
Lastly, scottyP, the wise, how will the people of Utah benefit from wolves? Because they will get to hear them howl??? Who will pay the ranchers for the cows they loose to wolves. I hope you are writing out a check right now. :lol: People were mad that a bear killed a little boy in AF canyon. I wonder how crazy they will get when a wolf kills someone.
I have a friend that is a Government trapper in B.C. Canada. He and I have went over the wolf issue. His main job is trapping wolves. And he has told me time and time again that if we like our deer and elk. We better shoot every dang wolf we see. It took some pretty nasty poison to get rid of them the first time. It won't be possible again. He says they move into an area......eat everything, and move to a new area. NO I don't want to see wolves reintroduced. We've lived without them for years and I can't see any point in needing them back
So coyoteslayer, you seem to be wavering in your position a bit. You don't want wolves in Utah but you DO want to be able to hunt them, and maybe we should put a pack in the book cliffs but they are a terrible creature that doesn't desterve to exist and once they finish eating the cattle, sheep, deer, and elk, they will start in on the children. But you would like to shoot one and have it mounted, right? I'm having trouble keeping up with your position on the issue.
I don't want them back just to hear them howl. The main reason I support the wolves return to Utah is a simple, yet deep rooted conviction that it is not and never will be our duty to eradicate ANY native creature out of an ecosystem. We can never bring balance with our actions of picking and choosing what creatures to introduce and which ones to decimate. Currently, we have no true in-tact wildlands in this state. One must drive several hours to the north to experience a complete and wild ecosystem like the greater Yellowstone area. I look foreward to the day when Utah will have true wilderness areas and that is the closest I can come to expressing my view on the matter. Your condesending sarcasm and doomsday predictions will not change my mind, as I'm sure I won't change yours. Time to let it be until next time.
I don't want them back just to hear them howl. The main reason I support the wolves return to Utah is a simple, yet deep rooted conviction that it is not and never will be our duty to eradicate ANY native creature out of an ecosystem. We can never bring balance with our actions of picking and choosing what creatures to introduce and which ones to decimate. Currently, we have no true in-tact wildlands in this state. One must drive several hours to the north to experience a complete and wild ecosystem like the greater Yellowstone area. I look foreward to the day when Utah will have true wilderness areas and that is the closest I can come to expressing my view on the matter. Your condesending sarcasm and doomsday predictions will not change my mind, as I'm sure I won't change yours. Time to let it be until next time.
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ScottyP I dont want to have wolves in Utah to hunt, but it looks like they will be coming on there own. If they did decide to put wolves in a place like the Bookcliffs then I hope they keep the size of wolves down very low because the wolf isnt a useful predator. I would rather hunt them somewhere up north because they will greatly affect our elk and deer herds here in Utah when they become better established.
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The only way to have these so called wilderness areas again is to get rid of 90% of the people in utah, the cities and roads and then maybe turn things back to the way they were 100 plus years ago and you will have your true wilderness and you can wear a breech cloth and be one with nature. Like people have said times have changed. Habitat as changed and there isnt hundreds of square miles avaliable to roam freely without having conflicts with humans.
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