Enough? Too much? About right? What do you think?
GaryFish
About right for Brady I think, if anything I would have liked to see it a bit higher, like around 6, just because of his refusal to cooperate. I was surprised they lost their 1st round pick, but don't think it'll really affect them too much.
All in all, when you take into account the money saved by the Patriots in not having to pay Brady for the 4 games, or first round money, the Patriots are actually going to save a bit of money.
I think they should have fined Bellichick directly, because even if he had no part of this, it's obvious that he's created a culture of cheating and bending the rules.
I'm guessing Brady will appeal it on the basis that there's no hard proof that he was a part of it, and his suspension will be dropped down to two.
All in all, when you take into account the money saved by the Patriots in not having to pay Brady for the 4 games, or first round money, the Patriots are actually going to save a bit of money.
I think they should have fined Bellichick directly, because even if he had no part of this, it's obvious that he's created a culture of cheating and bending the rules.
I'm guessing Brady will appeal it on the basis that there's no hard proof that he was a part of it, and his suspension will be dropped down to two.
what is the penalty for pine tar and stick em? That is how this should be viewed. Not a big deal and didn't make much of a difference but still a rule and should be penalized. I think it was steep and this was for goodell to make up for the debacle of the ray rice thing. But also to avoid questions of favoritism between him and the patriots owner. I think he acted like a prosecutor, charged a bit more aggressively but knows it will be appealed and maybe pushed down to 2 games.
I can't believe this even had the chance to happen- the NFL should have control of all the balls period.
Superbowl Champions*
The message is that cheating is mostly tolerated. Just on principle they should be stripped of the AFC title and the Superbowl title.
Brady knew what he was doing. The guys who deflated the balls knew what they were doing. They did it to have an unfair advantage. Whether deflating the balls resulted in an advantage or not, their intent was still to give themselves an advantage by fraud.
Competition is meaningless if it isn't honest.
I would have banned Brady, the deflators, and anyone else who knew or should have known that the balls were tampered with from the NFL for life. You don't play nice with cancer. You cut it out and kill it.
The message is that cheating is mostly tolerated. Just on principle they should be stripped of the AFC title and the Superbowl title.
Brady knew what he was doing. The guys who deflated the balls knew what they were doing. They did it to have an unfair advantage. Whether deflating the balls resulted in an advantage or not, their intent was still to give themselves an advantage by fraud.
Competition is meaningless if it isn't honest.
I would have banned Brady, the deflators, and anyone else who knew or should have known that the balls were tampered with from the NFL for life. You don't play nice with cancer. You cut it out and kill it.
So by that, the 49ers should be stripped of 3 of their 4 titles because Jerry Rice used stickum on his hands IN the Superbowl.
Holding is against the rules in football. As is jumping off sides, facemasking, roughing the kicker, pass interference, encroachment, etc..... Breaking any of those rules is cheating, unless caught - then it is a penalty. But breaking them without getting caught - is cheating.
The Vikings put all of their balls in a ball warmer last year during a home game to gain an advantage, and were given a warning.
Several teams pumped in crowd noise during games to gain advantage.
Back in the day, Lavell Edwards had his offensive linemen wear gloves that matched the color of the opposing teams jersey so they could hold without being seen. Coach Edwards would also let the grass grow extremely tall if they faced a team with more speed to even things up with his slow white guys.
Which is why I'm not hearing ANY current NFL players calling for the kind of penalty received here. And outside a few loud mouths who's talk was always much bigger and louder than their game (like Keshawn Johnson), no former players are saying much either.
My own thought is Brady and the Pats got busted doing something every other QB and team does - doctor the football. And they should be punished. But this punishment is not about just this infraction. It is the same as in the 5th game of the season, the ref calling holding on a team and saying "but instead of the customary 10 yard penalty, it will be 30 yards because in the 3rd game, the team also had 2 pass interference calls and jumped off sides twice."
Holding is against the rules in football. As is jumping off sides, facemasking, roughing the kicker, pass interference, encroachment, etc..... Breaking any of those rules is cheating, unless caught - then it is a penalty. But breaking them without getting caught - is cheating.
The Vikings put all of their balls in a ball warmer last year during a home game to gain an advantage, and were given a warning.
Several teams pumped in crowd noise during games to gain advantage.
Back in the day, Lavell Edwards had his offensive linemen wear gloves that matched the color of the opposing teams jersey so they could hold without being seen. Coach Edwards would also let the grass grow extremely tall if they faced a team with more speed to even things up with his slow white guys.
Which is why I'm not hearing ANY current NFL players calling for the kind of penalty received here. And outside a few loud mouths who's talk was always much bigger and louder than their game (like Keshawn Johnson), no former players are saying much either.
My own thought is Brady and the Pats got busted doing something every other QB and team does - doctor the football. And they should be punished. But this punishment is not about just this infraction. It is the same as in the 5th game of the season, the ref calling holding on a team and saying "but instead of the customary 10 yard penalty, it will be 30 yards because in the 3rd game, the team also had 2 pass interference calls and jumped off sides twice."
While I think the 1st round draft pick is an insanely harsh penalty........getting caught and going to court goes a whole lot smoother if you don't lie to the authorities or the judge before the sentence is passed.
Pete Rose, Lance Armstrong, Tonya Harding, Barry Bonds will all attest to that.
If my kids mess up and then tell the truth things go much smoother for them as well.
Personally I don't think all of these penalties will stick.
Pete Rose, Lance Armstrong, Tonya Harding, Barry Bonds will all attest to that.
If my kids mess up and then tell the truth things go much smoother for them as well.
Personally I don't think all of these penalties will stick.
Fair enough Dodger. I used the examples to show that individuals and teams are always pushing the line of the rules. The question here isn't if Brady and the Patriots are guilty. Though there is no evidence to prove it, I believe they jacked with the footballs and should be punished. The question is if the penalty fits the infraction.
Putting stick'um on your hands WAS illegal. There was no pre-game inspection protocol in place because it was just against the rules. But every sideline had cans of stick 'um, and if caught, the refs just said "go wash that off."
There is a rule against using artificial/amplified crowd noise during a game, so teams would have to conspire in the least with those operating the speaker system, to make that happen. And it really can't be done on accident. But those teams got slapped on the hands for doing it and nothing more. Same thing with the Vikings and the ball warmers. Some kind of conspiratorial activities had to happen to get a ball warmer on the sidelines and put the balls inside it. Again, they just got a warning.
As for on the field infractions, receivers are taught to hand fight, position their body, and flop in order to draw a PI call. Defensive backs are taught to hand fight, position their body, and interfere with the receiver, hoping to sell it to the ref that hey didn't commit PI. Jumping off sides is not subjective - and doing so is usually the result of trying to get a jump on the play. But it is breaking the rules.
My point of the examples is that breaking the rules does have consequence, be it 5 yards and loss of down, or a warning to not do something any more, or a fine.
I am neither a Patriot fan, nor a hater. I think they should be punished for this conspiracy to break the rules and by tampering with the footballs after they had been approved by the officials. But I think this penalty is waaaaayyyyy overboard. And for the Commissioner to come in and basically say "You weren't punished enough for when you broke other rules back in 2007, we are going to punish you for that too" is just punitive.
The only good out of the whole deal, is that all fines collected by the NFL, are donated to the United Way. And that is cool. And I think that IF this penalty sticks, Brady's salary for the suspended game should also go the United Way, and not just be retained by the Patriots.
Putting stick'um on your hands WAS illegal. There was no pre-game inspection protocol in place because it was just against the rules. But every sideline had cans of stick 'um, and if caught, the refs just said "go wash that off."
There is a rule against using artificial/amplified crowd noise during a game, so teams would have to conspire in the least with those operating the speaker system, to make that happen. And it really can't be done on accident. But those teams got slapped on the hands for doing it and nothing more. Same thing with the Vikings and the ball warmers. Some kind of conspiratorial activities had to happen to get a ball warmer on the sidelines and put the balls inside it. Again, they just got a warning.
As for on the field infractions, receivers are taught to hand fight, position their body, and flop in order to draw a PI call. Defensive backs are taught to hand fight, position their body, and interfere with the receiver, hoping to sell it to the ref that hey didn't commit PI. Jumping off sides is not subjective - and doing so is usually the result of trying to get a jump on the play. But it is breaking the rules.
My point of the examples is that breaking the rules does have consequence, be it 5 yards and loss of down, or a warning to not do something any more, or a fine.
I am neither a Patriot fan, nor a hater. I think they should be punished for this conspiracy to break the rules and by tampering with the footballs after they had been approved by the officials. But I think this penalty is waaaaayyyyy overboard. And for the Commissioner to come in and basically say "You weren't punished enough for when you broke other rules back in 2007, we are going to punish you for that too" is just punitive.
The only good out of the whole deal, is that all fines collected by the NFL, are donated to the United Way. And that is cool. And I think that IF this penalty sticks, Brady's salary for the suspended game should also go the United Way, and not just be retained by the Patriots.
Here is the Patriots response to the Wells Report. I just read it all. Plan for at least 30 minutes to read it. A few laughable points ("deflator" used as a weight loss term), but a pretty good rebuttal to the "evidence" presented. After reading it, I believe all the punishment will be rescinded.
http://wellsreportcontext.com/
http://wellsreportcontext.com/
Interesting read. I know it is a he said/she said deal. But if the Colts had four footballs that measured low as well, and the NFL suppressed that info until now, then this whole thing takes on a completely different look. AND, if a different make and model of pressure gauge was used before the game than was used at half-time? And ALL the balls for both teams showed loss of pressure consistent with differences in temperatures - something that had not previously been aknowledged by the NFL but the Patriots have been claiming all along? ----- Hmmmmmm. Aside from some of the just ridiculous stuff included, there are some pretty interesting points raised there.
So if an arbitrator reviews stuff and says "you know what - the NFL screwed the pooch on this one. Brady and the Patriots are off the hook" - It will be interesting to see if those claiming for Brady and the Patriots to forfeit all of their super bowl titles will have much to say. Or does that even matter at this point and as the 21st century poet Taylor Swift says, "Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate."
Not saying I believe all that the Patriots had to say in their response because some of it is pretty silly. But still - the things mentioning the actual evidence are pretty compelling.
Looking forward to the next chapter in the story for sure. It beats watching the Kardashians!
So if an arbitrator reviews stuff and says "you know what - the NFL screwed the pooch on this one. Brady and the Patriots are off the hook" - It will be interesting to see if those claiming for Brady and the Patriots to forfeit all of their super bowl titles will have much to say. Or does that even matter at this point and as the 21st century poet Taylor Swift says, "Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate."
Not saying I believe all that the Patriots had to say in their response because some of it is pretty silly. But still - the things mentioning the actual evidence are pretty compelling.
Looking forward to the next chapter in the story for sure. It beats watching the Kardashians!
I agree that the Pats shouldn't be punished retroactively for something they did before. But I wouldn't give them a pass on this, and I think the punishment is a pass.
You know how this kind of crap perpetuates itself? When they get caught, there are no penalties. If they started to lay out the ban hammer, we wouldn't be seeing this kind of crap happen. Either they are serious about the integrity of the game, or they aren't.
I also think there is a difference in trying to use the rules to your advantage and breaking the rules to get an unfair advantage over the other team. Trying to get a flag isn't breaking the rules. Both players on both sides of the ball do that.
Where there are rules, I think they should be enforced. If they need to start inspecting players' hands for stickum, do it. If they need someone to stand on the sidelines and look for it, do it. If they need someone in the sound booth to watch the crowd noise, do it.
I don't like the Pats, but I don't like them because of this nefarious sort of garbage. They did more here than a minor rules infraction. They subverted the process intentionally and willfully and found ways to overcome safeguards that have been put in place to prevent the kind of thing they did. And that should draw a more forceful punishment than just a 4 game ban, fines, and loss of draft picks.
You know how this kind of crap perpetuates itself? When they get caught, there are no penalties. If they started to lay out the ban hammer, we wouldn't be seeing this kind of crap happen. Either they are serious about the integrity of the game, or they aren't.
I also think there is a difference in trying to use the rules to your advantage and breaking the rules to get an unfair advantage over the other team. Trying to get a flag isn't breaking the rules. Both players on both sides of the ball do that.
Where there are rules, I think they should be enforced. If they need to start inspecting players' hands for stickum, do it. If they need someone to stand on the sidelines and look for it, do it. If they need someone in the sound booth to watch the crowd noise, do it.
I don't like the Pats, but I don't like them because of this nefarious sort of garbage. They did more here than a minor rules infraction. They subverted the process intentionally and willfully and found ways to overcome safeguards that have been put in place to prevent the kind of thing they did. And that should draw a more forceful punishment than just a 4 game ban, fines, and loss of draft picks.
I guess the main point is the League didn't prove the rules were actually broken. The Patriots statement outlines all the speculation that led to the League's conclusions (or were the conclusions reached first? Patriots make a pretty strong case for this.).
I'm all for punishment where evidence proves wrong doing. But how can you justify any punishment at all where there is nothing beyond speculative reasoning that supports your predetermined conclusion?
I'm all for punishment where evidence proves wrong doing. But how can you justify any punishment at all where there is nothing beyond speculative reasoning that supports your predetermined conclusion?
My Opinion is changing some what
Why aren't these finding being made public by the media but other finding are from the same Wells report ?
3 of 4 Colts footballs checked at halftime weighed in under 12.5 PSI by one of the two officials measuring them. Then, they suddenly stopped checking. The other 8 Colts footballs simply, and conveniently, went unchecked.
Officials found both at halftime and after the AFC title clash that, "it's more more probable than not" that the Colts played the entire game with under-inflated footballs.
.
Why aren't these finding being made public by the media but other finding are from the same Wells report ?
3 of 4 Colts footballs checked at halftime weighed in under 12.5 PSI by one of the two officials measuring them. Then, they suddenly stopped checking. The other 8 Colts footballs simply, and conveniently, went unchecked.
Officials found both at halftime and after the AFC title clash that, "it's more more probable than not" that the Colts played the entire game with under-inflated footballs.
.
The more I dig into this the more conflicting it gets- both ways- and the saddest part about it all is that I actually spent time doing this.
My thoughts at this point are that once all the FACTS actually come out, the Patriots and Brady are going to be smiling, and the NFL is going to look the fool, and smiling.
As more information trickles out, it is looking like the footballs used by the Colts in the game, also each lost about a pound of pressure, just like those used by the Patriots. The difference being that they started at the higher end of the allowable range, and the Patriots started at the lower end. Even with that, 3 of the 4 Colt Footballs measured below 12 1/2 psi as well. And if that is the case, then the Patriots explanation about temperature holds true - colder air - lost air pressure.
And if that is what the facts bear out, and all the conviction in the court of public opinion coming down is all because the media jumped on partial information, and the NFL withheld all the facts of the story - well - how do they have any credibility on anything going forward?
But the ultimate winner on it all is the NFL. It is May, with really great playoffs going on in the NBA and NHL, weather is turning nice, and yet the NFL is the lead story on Sportscenter, the subject of nearly all sports information outlets, and here we are on a freaking wildlife forum site talking about it. And I'm the one that started this thread!
I am such a TOTAL sucker for football news and realizing just how much is pretty embarrassing. I couldn't list more than maybe 2 players on the Jazz, no way could I tell you who is still in the NBA Playoffs except I think Lebron's team beat Chicago - who does he even play for any more? And one of my Canadian facebook friends posted something or other about being sad, which I guess probably means that there are no Canadian teams left in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Again.
Yet, I'm pretty sure I know enough about the deflating footballs thing to hold my own in any discussion in any sports bar in Boston. And that is the really sad part.
As more information trickles out, it is looking like the footballs used by the Colts in the game, also each lost about a pound of pressure, just like those used by the Patriots. The difference being that they started at the higher end of the allowable range, and the Patriots started at the lower end. Even with that, 3 of the 4 Colt Footballs measured below 12 1/2 psi as well. And if that is the case, then the Patriots explanation about temperature holds true - colder air - lost air pressure.
And if that is what the facts bear out, and all the conviction in the court of public opinion coming down is all because the media jumped on partial information, and the NFL withheld all the facts of the story - well - how do they have any credibility on anything going forward?
But the ultimate winner on it all is the NFL. It is May, with really great playoffs going on in the NBA and NHL, weather is turning nice, and yet the NFL is the lead story on Sportscenter, the subject of nearly all sports information outlets, and here we are on a freaking wildlife forum site talking about it. And I'm the one that started this thread!
I am such a TOTAL sucker for football news and realizing just how much is pretty embarrassing. I couldn't list more than maybe 2 players on the Jazz, no way could I tell you who is still in the NBA Playoffs except I think Lebron's team beat Chicago - who does he even play for any more? And one of my Canadian facebook friends posted something or other about being sad, which I guess probably means that there are no Canadian teams left in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Again.
Yet, I'm pretty sure I know enough about the deflating footballs thing to hold my own in any discussion in any sports bar in Boston. And that is the really sad part.
Wow Gary,that kind of is, ahhh well I dont know what it is.Hey watch a little hockey,thats a fun alternative to football.
opcorn:
opcorn:
So Kraft isn't going to appeal the penalties. Hmmmmm.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...aft-patriots-wont-appeal-teams-fine-draft-penalties/ar-BBjY5CI?ocid=mailsignout
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...aft-patriots-wont-appeal-teams-fine-draft-penalties/ar-BBjY5CI?ocid=mailsignout
Kraft cares about a few million dollars saved on a suspension about as much as he cares about losing a razor. He makes far more money off of Superbowl wins than he ever will off of suspensions.
Kraft backed off because Goodell obviously told Kraft that a trial would make the NFL reveal everything they had which was much worse than the NFL said publicly. That's the only reason Kraft would have suddenly backed off.
So the judge threw out the suspension. Hmmmmm. And blasted it in every way possible. Does this mean Brady didn't cheat? or the level of evidence for conviction in a legal court is just different than in the NFL world? "More probable than not" is not a thing I guess.
This pretty much rips the commish in regard to dishing out suspensions - totally ripped the commish for not having the power to do that kind of suspension without explanation. It'll be interesting to see if the NFL appeals.
This pretty much rips the commish in regard to dishing out suspensions - totally ripped the commish for not having the power to do that kind of suspension without explanation. It'll be interesting to see if the NFL appeals.
The part of me that hates Tom Brady wishes they would have stuck it to him. However, the part of me that is absolutely sick of hearing about deflate gate at every turn just wants this to be over and done with. Tom knew and probably orchestrated the ball pressure fiasco, but Goodell definitely overstepped here as well. I hope, at this point, that this all just goes away.....
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