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800 thousand mule deer in Utah

13K views 90 replies 31 participants last post by  DallanC  
#1 ·
yea Utah's deer herd is thriving, 800,000+ animals down to less than 300,000 and less every year.
.
I keep hearing this number being brought up but where is it coming from?
Does anyone have data or proof of this claim?
Where are the reports of this many deer being in the state in one year?
And how many years were there this many deer in the state?
I would really like to see the documents.
 
#2 · (Edited)
I can tell you this.
Back in the 60s thru the 70s,
Hunters thought the DWR was under estimating Utahs deer heards.
(Unlike now, just the opposite)

In deer camps in the 60s,
It was common to hear the hunters saying Utah must have about a million deer.

Many believed there was 800K.
 
#5 ·
The two of us lived and hunted in the 60's, were there more deer or did the number of hunters out just push them all over the place.

All you have to do is to drive around in the high country and look at the number of gin poles hanging in the trees where hunters used to string their deer up at. Then look around the area and odds are you will see no or very few deer, the hills around these spots are usually a ghost town now and odd are you won't see another hunter or very few.

I too would like to know the guestimate of the number of deer that we had back in the 60's, and 70's. Forget about the 80's, and 90's.

I do know that when I first started to hunt the Book Cliffs back in the mid 80's was that there were deer all over. Every gas platform would have a dozen or so hanging around and there were always 2pts, spikes, and small 3pts hanging out on them. Then they opened it up to any buck and every person and their dog showed up down there. Two years later you had a hard time even finding a 2 pt much less a good buck. Some blame it on the weather, others blame it on blue tongue. I blame it on the DOW and opening it up to any buck instead of keeping it restricted. Some will site studies that show that the restrictions that were in place didn't do anything but it is funny in that both the Book Cliffs and the Henry Mountains had the same restrictions and both were doing fine until they opened them up to any buck, then two to three years later they closed both units because there were no deer left.
 
#6 ·
Critter makes a GREAT point,
Look at all the old deer hanging poles EVERYWHERE!

The old timers didn't put those up for nothing.

And ya, to add to the BC and Henry's list.
Oak City, The Paunsy, San Jaun.
All had to be shut down AFTER lifting antler restrictions.
Go figure.
 
#7 ·
Koby there is 0 documentation for that claim, at least I have never found it after scouring tons of DWR reports, newsletters, media articles, etc.

That particular claim surfaced on 'the other hunting forum' back when Utah herds were hurting and numbers across the west were tanking, it's been several years now and that number pops up when it 'fits' the claims of certain people to enhance their agenda and montra to cut more tags, and back SFW in their pursuit to do the same. Initially it came from a certain individual from the southern 'good ol' boys club' down south, and continued to be claimed off and on from the various groups down that way and his son of course. It comes up now and again when herd numbers are being questioned.:)

As I recall, he came up with that number based on the DWR reports back in the 60's/70's that claimed X number of deer either per sq. mile or something similar. Of course, extrapolations were made based on that number and a very rough 'guestimate' was made for the total number of deer in the state, and it was pushed as a DWR claim, which it was not. I don't have the time to go back and look it up in the archives of 'that site', nor the inclination to do so as it is an asinine endeavor at this point in time; but I'm sure it can be found there.

I have no doubt that back in the heyday of mule deer numbers in Utah they pushed the 500k+, and maybe 600k, but that's pure speculation on my part based off hunting during that time. Critter has a valid point of hunters pushing deer all around back then, I saw it and dealt with it. 200k+ hunters, camps of 20 or more people, families out kicking butt to have fun and kill some deer. I had a great time back then, and yep even heard goofy's claim that lots of folks exclaimed "there must be a million deer here!". It really was a fun time dodging the sea of red and watching the deer run for their lives across the landscape...8)
 
#8 ·
We are now using old timer deer camp exaggerations and deer pole density as scientific measuring sticks? Got it.

But we for sure know what the numbers are then and now better than the DWR.

The great thing about anecdotal evidence is that if you talk to enough people, you’ll eventually find someone that saw something that supports your viewpoint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#12 ·
We are now using old timer deer camp exaggerations and deer pole density as scientific measuring sticks? Got it.

But we for sure know what the numbers are then and now better than the DWR.

The great thing about anecdotal evidence is that if you talk to enough people, you'll eventually find someone that saw something that supports your viewpoint.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"The fish was this big"

"Saw a three fitty bull"

"30" buck at least"

All things uncle Rico says as he spits his dip juice into a keystone can.

Now Uncle Rico is telling us how many deer there were "back in my day" (another familiar quote :mrgreen:)
 
#9 ·
Just a question for you Kwalk3, did you experience the hunting in Utah back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's? Have you ever driven up Highway 6 in Spanish Fork Canyon and seen the pull off right across the road from Covered Bridge Canyon or whatever it is called now a few miles west of Diamond Fork Turn off? That was built for a deer check station back in the 70's. Daniels Canyon on HWY 40 just used the weigh station for all the hunters. There were a lot more hunters back then and I believe that the success rate was around 33%, but I could be wrong on that number, it has been years since I actually seen a number for back then.
 
#15 ·
Critter,

I was not alive until the 80s. That's not the point at all. Anecdote isn't worth the space on the page it takes to type the word when we are talking about scientific population estimates.

There's always a longing for what used to be. There have been massive population and cultural changes in Utah in the last 60 years. Deer hunting is undoubtedly a much smaller part of life in Utah today than it was then, but it's not because there used to be a million deer or even 800k and now there are none.

They still set up a check station at that turnout you mentioned 5 years ago. But that doesn't mean a thing as far as real numbers go. Same with deer poles per capita and campfire population surveys.

My point about anecdote is this: Let's deal with the actual numbers. Period.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#11 · (Edited)
I hunted in the 70's and 80's. I sure don't remember seeing a million deer anywhere. I think some have forgotten that in the late 70's into the early 80's there was NO archery or muzzle hunts south of highway 20 in southern Utah, because of low deer numbers. We used to go to Salina canyon to bow hunt.
There also was years of shortened rifle hunts down here. Then the big winter of '83 put a big hurt on the deer herds as well.
I also remember the days of 250k+ tags. I remember going up bumblebee mountain one morning and all u could see was orange when the sun came up. Was a joke. They closed it down for a few years right after that year.
Another year about '78 or so I saw 6 does total the whole hunt. In '79 I shot a 15.5" 4x3 that took second place in the big buck contest I was in with about 20 guys. Was tickled just to get a 4 point. I know it was '79 because my wife was pregnant with our first daughter.
We pass up bucks these days we would have be estatic to get back then.

So.......
No, I do not want to go back to the good 'ol days.
 
#13 ·
I clearly remember, back when I cared about Utah deer management, reading a F&G official's report from 1968 in which he suggested 800,000. The gist of his report was that 800,000 couldn't be sustained and that a population crash was imminent. The number was probably bogus, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that in the years that followed, the state's deer population did indeed take a nose dive (for a bunch of reasons).

At that point, hunter preference began to replace biological science in deer management. In response to growing public pressure, the state abandoned the use of hunting as a management tool in favor of management for hunting. Since then, there's been a sustained effort to reduce harvest, mostly by restrictions on hunting. In 1975, general season permits went from either sex to buck only. The late 80's saw limited entry, high country and 3 point or better hunts. In 1993, hunters were required to hunt only one season and in '94, permits were capped. In that same year, any weapon permits became regional. By '99, all permits had to be purchased directly from the DWR.

For all practical purposes, we now have statewide limited entry. And still, after decades of restrictions, hunters complain about overcrowding and too few mature bucks.
 
#14 ·
So they didn't know then and they don't know now? Come on one of you guys must know how to get a count of every deer in Utah.

I did hunt in the 60's and yes I believe there are fewer deer now than then. But as Finnegan says even after all the restrictions people are still complaining.

How many hunters do we need to alienate before there are no voices left?
 
#16 ·
It sounds like I am about the same age as Critter and Goofy and do remember hunting in the 70"s. A few comments.

1. When I started hunting in the late 70's, dad and the rest of the deer camp whined that I should have been there in the 60's. When we were hunting in the 80's, they groused that it was better in the 70's. In the 90's, I should have been there in the 80's. We consistently harvested deer through all periods or at minimum, had the chance to. It is human nature to claim that it was better "back then" regardless of the objective facts at hand.

2. I am very familiar with the poles Critter refers to. However, on "our" mountain, where we hunted for years, there used to be camps in many of those spots and now there are none. Additionally, some of those poles were used by the locals when they did deer drives and would be strategically placed where the stationers would most likely harvest deer. Now, drives such as what was done long ago are a thing of the past as well as markedly fewer camps on the mountain. Spots that always had a camp in them during the general hunt long ago now sit empty.

3. The buck to doe ratios on most of these public lands hunts was abysmal. Yes, I would see 50-100 deer a day but most were does. Additionally, almost all the hunters would shoot the first legal buck that came along or fill aunt Betty's and uncle Deans tags with forkhorns before tagging out on a bigger buck.

4. I have not seen an objective count of 800,000 as the states population, and suspect that it is a number that has gotten thrown out in some internet debate or used as an objective for $FW propaganda and therefore becomes internet "truth".
 
#18 ·
The only evidence I've seen from official sources is that since settlement by the pioneers, the 1980s had the highest mule deer population in Utah in the low 400,000s. And there is a note in a usfws study from 1985 about 400k possibly not being sustainable.

But sure, the gubmint prolly just wanted to hide the "facts" and keep us in the dark on this one. So yep, definitely let's double the official count because there are lots of meat poles in the mountains from way back when
 
#19 ·
I had a real nice reply for you JC but something happened and it got wiped out.

But in general here is what it said. In 1983 there were 82,552 bucks harvested in Utah by 228,907 hunters for a success rate of 36%. That is a lot of bucks and the population needed to be fairly high to sustain that kind of harvest.

Also way back in 1961 there were around 132,000 deer harvested both does and bucks since the tags at that time were either sex. There were also areas that allow up to 7 or so deer on one tag. The population at that time had to be quite high.

Now does that say that the population was anywhere near 800,000 I doubt it but there were a lot of deer back then.

Here is some good reading on Utah's deer herds and it is where I got the above numbers from.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/mule_deer_plan.pdf
 
#21 ·
I once had a DWR employee tell me he thought they should go back to either sex. He figured the meat hunters would shoot the first deer they saw and then be gone. More bucks would survive the hunt.

So all you smart guys tell me how you are going to get an accurate count! Otherwise it is just using somebodies bad numbers to make assumptions.

Don't agree with the DWR? Tell them how to get it done!
 
#23 ·
800,000 is the number some people come up with as what it would have taken to produce the number of deer killed during those years. The State says there were 200,000ish hunters from approx 1960 to 1990. Deer harvest in 1961 was reported around 125,000- but that includes buck and doe harvest. The most bucks harvested came in the early 1980s with a harvest in the low 80,000s - but buck to doe ratios in the single digits on many units.

The 800,000 could be valid or not- I have sat in a couple hundred hours of Mule Deer Management meetings and don't remember seeing legit Buck to Doe ratio numbers for the 1960s. I have seen estimates that put it around 10. For the 1980s- the real numbers I have seen usually falls into the single digits to the low teens.

What people sometimes fail to realize is the fawn retention into the 1980s was far higher due to the complete destruction of predators. Back then, fawns hit the ground and lived. Now fawns hit the ground and die.

I honestly think deer numbers were higher back in the day. I can't say if they were 3 times higher than we have today (from around 300,000 today against 800,000-900,000 from back then). I can say there is no way to attain those numbers again without a war on predators, crossing guards for deer, perfect weather, and range rehab.

Herds are not rapidly growing. How many doe deer are they shooting on the Book Cliffs? On the Pauns? The answer to low deer numbers is not thru buck hunters.....

And if Utah had 800,000 deer then this quote published in the late 1960s "Productivity of Mule Deer on the La Sal and Henry Mountains of Utah" should be of interest from those who came before us--
"During the 1950's, Utah experienced high populations of mule deer, and a general deterioration of the habitat resulted. In an attempt to correct this condition, the Utah State Department of Fish and Game and Federal land management agencies embarked on a program to reduce mule deer and livestock numbers to the carrying capacity of the range. Management tools implemented to reduce deer numbers included building access roads, issuing permits for special hunts, and extending hunting seasons."

The higher number of deer degraded the range. They issued special hunts. Cut access roads into secluded places to KILL the deer. So when guys use those harvest numbers to support their theory on populations back then- maybe the numbers were skewed because the UTFG was trying to kill deer- not grow deer in the 1960s.

..
 
#24 ·
Reporting was worse back in the 60s-90s than it is today. I wouldn’t be surprised if the actual human harvest was two or three times what was reported. The thing you all are forgetting or denying (not sure which it is) that there wasn’t 2500 cougar eating 125K deer per year or 1 cougar for every 100 deer back then. Hunters were the primary harvester of deer. And if there is 300,000 deer today there was easily 3 times as many deer in the good old days probably more.

As for sustainability. Funny every other critter using the range has sustained numbers or increased over the last 50 years. Same amount of sheep cattle and more elk. Do you figure cattlemen and sheepherders are sucking hind tit because of weather and habitat loss? I don’t. I figure just like we were told in the early 80’s by a higher up in the dwr at the time. Utah is getting out of the deer business. And it been policy that has steered the deer herd ever since. It’s foolish to believe that the dwr has no control over deer populations and it up to Mother Nature.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Mule deer are as tuff as they get. They live at 14,000 ft to sea level. They live in the driest deserts they live up n the marsh. They live in the city they live in the most remote backcountry. They live up in freezing Canada and live in hot Mexico. They will eat all kinds of food to survive and thrive from graze to browse. They will eat garbage literally. They eat fruit and shrubs from your yard they will eat the your dog food if you leave it out. It wasn’t a mule deer but I once saw a video of a deer eating a bird. I’ll guess mule deer occasionally will eat a bird too given the chance. My point is that mule deer are survivors and given the chance thrivers. So I don’t buy the habitat and weather excuse for less deer than yesteryears. I’m fine with the fact that we will never have deer like we had. But don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining. It’s not like its because Mother Nature won’t allow for it and the deer population boom starting in the 40s was a perfect storm for deer. Plain and simple it was predator control. Ending the practice in the 70s is the reason for deer not being able to rebound to historically high numbers. Habitat my azz. But it sure has served as a great vehicle to pump money into so called wildlife conservation. You know the millions of dollars DP plays with that you guys hate so much is mostly raised in the name of habitat bs. Utah has pumped more money into habitat in the name of wildlife than any other state hands down. And we don’t have it any better than any one else besides California. But we have pimped out our system to deep pockets and elite that have no interest in your family hunt or you getting a tag every year.

I’m glad studs like Ridge can still find big bucks. It gives me hope that they still do exists. But it’s not like very many guys are seeing that kind of quality. So I don’t agree things are still ok in the deer department. When back in the day I saw good buck from the road during the hunt every year on Monroe. Kinda like hunting the Henry’s or Pauns today. I didn’t have to scout 20 days and hike 60 miles to find a big deer.

Rant over.
 
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#26 ·
One thing that amazes me about this conversation (not in this specific thread, but the conversation in general) is that many of the people that accept the calculation of 800,000 deer as the gospel truth are the same ones that cry foul on the DWR population estimate modules that are used today. One is scientific, one was a dude saying “X deer were killed, so the population had to be Y.” It was just a flat dumb guess, and it is accepted without question by a subset of people that just bash scientifically backed population modules out of the other side of their mouths.

I simply can’t get over that little nugget.

Wow. Just wow.

(This frustration comes from another forum mostly, not here.)
 
#27 ·
One thing that amazes me about this conversation (not in this specific thread, but the conversation in general) is that many of the people that accept the calculation of 800,000 deer as the gospel truth are the same ones that cry foul on the DWR population estimate modules that are used today. One is scientific, one was a dude saying "X deer were killed, so the population had to be Y." It was just a flat dumb guess, and it is accepted without question by a subset of people that just bash scientifically backed population modules out of the other side of their mouths.

I simply can't get over that little nugget.

Wow. Just wow.

(This frustration comes from another forum mostly, not here.)
I agree but wouldn't you attribute that to people endorsing whatever set of "facts" most closely match whatever their agenda is on the subject? If the DWR data agrees with their opinion, then it is right, if not, then the old timers estimates and meat pole counts are correct.

We only have to look at the national political situation to see two radically different interpretations of the same objective set of "facts".
 
#30 ·
What we need are more accurate deer herd 'estament' counts.

The current computer models being used are either flawed or incorrect data is used. One or the other.

Interesting DWR conversations I've had the last month. They have been conducting buck to doe ratios on winter ranges.
They agree with low deer numbers everywhere I've looked.

Spoke with one individual thats on the Bookcliffs study yesterday.
They took a 'range ride' through the cliffs in late November.
This member was on the SE ride.
Went from Sego canyon, Nash wash, Diamond up thru Hay and East canyons. Super low deer counts unfortunately reported.
 
#32 ·
One thing about those population numbers that most of you forget about or ignore is the fact that those numbers are taken during the winter AFTER the hunts when there is snow on the ground and the deer are concentrated more and BEFORE much of the "winterkill" happens.

Wildlife has to deal with weather as it happens and often it takes its toll later. In the case of deer populations, it may be in the early spring when the deer are malnourished or ill or weak from the rigors of surviving a cold harsh winter. The does are pregnant and aren't able to get around as well and the bucks (and does) have used up any fat reserves they may have built before the winter. The cougars and coyotes have an easier time preying on yearling big game and weaker adults. The deer are starting to migrate back to spring and summer ranges and that means crossing roads, freeways, fences, human occupied land and habitat that hasn't much new annual growth. Compound that with occasional late winter-like storms that result in cold, wet weather. AND don't forget the long term droughts that degrade habitat over a period of years. "Winterkill" isn't just about snow and ice during the winter. A lot of weather related things happen after the classifications/counts that can mess up the numbers!