Would probaly do a good job at managing his resource. I think we all can agree on that cant we? After all its his lively hood. No polotics. He can make any choice he wants.

A lot of landowners probably wish that was the case. But it isn't.

Does the DWR take any advise from say maybe deseret or any others?

You'd have to ask the CWMU Association. But from my experience, they're pretty much like the rest of us - they think they know a lot more than they actually do. :wink:

 

I don't believe the elk ranchers keep the scrubs either. So what do you think they do with them?

 

This isn't about elk, but The Alton CWMU is very good at managing their deer herd. Im very impressed with these guys. They are always improving their land to make it better mule deer habitat. They have special management hunts to cull the 3 point bucks and every year they kill some whoppers. Sometimes they have a few doe hunts.

http://www.colorcountryoutfitting.com/index.html

BTW George Strait hunts there a lot. I had a great time when I hunted there also. I was eating steak and lobsters with multi-millionaires.

 

Suggesting that managing a few acres of private land with very different objectives (turning a profit) is even remotely similar to managing millions and millions of public acres for the benefit of a diverse group of users...hunters, ranchers, etc, is absolutely absurd. For example, even within the hunters, there are different objectives, not all hunters want management for say "trophy" bucks only. Many farmers for example would like to see less animals eating their hay every year...I mean operating a private hunting ranch would be very very simple when compared to meeting the demands of the public on public land and doing it in a way that biologically is best for the animals. More than likely private operators would have some good ideas, but I doubt very seriously they would have any new, novel ideas that haven't been discussed over and over and over.

 

How big is deseret?
Coyoteslayer, Man If I had an extra 10 grand I know where I would be next august. That really only sickens me that our public deer herd is in such bad shape. What a contrast! It only bolsters my belief that the land owner knows whats up.

 

On private land, killing 1.5 year old bucks/bulls is not acceptable at all in terms of lowering the male:female ratio. On private land the landowner can identify animals a lot more consistently and pick and choose the animals that should be harvested. So the 3.5-4.5 year old animals that don't show much potential are the males that are harvested. There are too many factors that can influence an animal during that first 1.5 years to determine potential at that point.

 

I have guided a lot on Deseret, i can maybe answer a few questions.

The Deseret IS ran by the DWR and their biologists, but owned by the LDS church.
It is the largest cattle ranch west of the mississippi, aprox 250,000 acres.
It goes from lost creek clear into the flat land just north of Evanston Wyoming.
The bull to cow ratio's are 1 in 1.
They only kill the best bulls the outfitters can find, plus they have been doing management hunts for years (5 points on one side or less).
They also kill a LOT of cows every year to keep the numbers in balance.
They also have full time government trappers keeping varmints and predators in balance as well.
They also have a winter feeding program for the elk out on the east end.
They hunt deer, elk, moose, bison and antelope.

In a nutshell....the place is a perfect ecosystem for wildlife

 

The other part of the equation - DWR in most cases does NOT manage the habitats. BLM and the Forest Service manage the habitats. And they both have missions to manage the land for multiple uses - not just wildlife, or cattle. They also must manage those habitats within a mazework of other laws and regulations that have the agencies turning in upside down circles trying to comply. And then US Fish and Wildlife Service can step in and change everything from any sort of wholistic management. And then a mineral company can lease the mineral rights and pretty much what they want to get access to the minerals. AND then a different state agency governs water use - and that tends to favor agriculture and development vs. ecosystem management and the wild critters. And I could go on. That all combines to leave the DWR in charge of the wildlife, and really not much to do with the habitats. And that is why us as hunters are left to wonder why they don't do more.

On private lands, the landowner doesn't have to get clearance from the state historic preservation officer before he builds a stock tank. He doesn't have to comply with EPA clean air standards when he blades a road or burns weeds. He doesn't have to complete a biological assessment signed off by three agencies when he puts in a stock tank. And he doesn't have to let everyone with a four wheeler come around any time they want and drive all over the place because they claim some 1876 mining law gives them access.

 

"The bull to cow ratio's are 1 in 1."
Skull Krazy are you sure about that one??????

 

"The bull to cow ratio's are 1 in 1."
Skull Krazy are you sure about that one??????

Yep absolutely.
I know it sounds absurd, but that's how they like it up there.

 

"The bull to cow ratio's are 1 in 1."
Skull Krazy are you sure about that one??????

Yep absolutely.
I know it sounds absurd, but that's how they like it up there.

When I was up there last year, I would have put the ration at 3 bulls per 2 cows. Yes, there were THAT many bulls up there.

 

I know it's hard to beleive, but that's what they tell us in the meetings at Deseret...."1 to 1".

What your NOT seeing during the rut is all the smaller young bulls that make up the other 2% of what you are seeing.

Deseret is very frustrating to hunt because almost every bull you look at is a 6x6.
Literally, you can show a client 100 6x6 bulls on a 5 day hunt......beleive it or not.

 

I have guided a lot on Deseret, i can maybe answer a few questions.

The Deseret IS ran by the DWR and their biologists, but owned by the LDS church.
It is the largest cattle ranch west of the mississippi, aprox 250,000 acres.
It goes from lost creek clear into the flat land just north of Evanston Wyoming.
The bull to cow ratio's are 1 in 1.
They only kill the best bulls the outfitters can find, plus they have been doing management hunts for years (5 points on one side or less).
They also kill a LOT of cows every year to keep the numbers in balance.
They also have full time government trappers keeping varmints and predators in balance as well.
They also have a winter feeding program for the elk out on the east end.
They hunt deer, elk, moose, bison and antelope.

In a nutshell....the place is a perfect ecosystem for wildlife

So in a perfect ecosystem how big is the average bull?

 

Hey SW!!
Deseret runs a 330" "average".
There have been a few BIG bulls taken over the years, but 330-340 are quite the norm.
I have seen a few 380's taken over the years and quite a few 350-360's, but If you happen to see a 350 or 360 bull up there, you better put the throwdown on him quick!

 

Also-
Deseret manages their elk for quantity and opportunity to take "nice bulls", that's why the high bull to cow ratio's.

They would rather sell 60 or so "nice bulls" each season and offer a fantastic elk hunting experience, than kill 10 380 or better bulls.
That's just how they choose to operate up there.

 

I have been hunting spikes on private land for the last 15 years in central utah. the landowner has the land posted has an amazing elk herd that lives on his property throughout the whole season. He has helped with the population through various projects and what not but if you find a landowner that respects the game and the value that they add to the property they will do it right.
Cory

 

So skull how come the state manages for a bull to cow ratio right now at a 1 to 1 on the monroe and still produces bulls like spidy?

Is the Monroe average bull about the same as the deseret?

 

They hunt deer, elk, moose, bison and antelope

skull crazy

Do tell about the buffalo. I want a good challenging hunt.

 

So skull how come the state manages for a bull to cow ratio right now at a 1 to 1 on the monroe and still produces bulls like spidy?

Is the Monroe average bull about the same as the deseret?

I'm not aware of Monroe's ratio's but even if that is correct, a lot comes into play with genetics and available tags.
They don't kill nearly as many bulls on Monroe as they do Deseret, and the genetics are obviously different.

Monroe kills a lot better bulls than they do on Deseret, and i would say that is it's #1 difference right off the bat.
Don't quote me on this, but i'm not scared to say that Monroe has an "average" score of somewhere around 360" for the amount of bull tags given.

 

I'm not aware of Monroe's ratio's but even if that is correct, a lot comes into play with genetics and available tags.
They don't kill nearly as many bulls on Monroe as they do Deseret, and the genetics are obviously different.

Monroe kills a lot better bulls than they do on Deseret, and i would say that is it's #1 difference right off the bat.
Don't quote me on this, but i'm not scared to say that Monroe has an "average" score of somewhere around 360" for the amount of bull tags given.

I don't think the Monroe's elk genetics is much different than the Deseret. I believe the difference is how the two herds are managed. N.cache is a trophy bull unit, but once in a while you hear of a 400 class bull getting shot because it survived long enough to get that big. Deseret gives out more tags so many bulls not have a chance to reach their full potential.

Every elk herd has both good and bad genetics. Some genes are expressed more than others.

 

I'm not aware of Monroe's ratio's but even if that is correct, a lot comes into play with genetics and available tags.
They don't kill nearly as many bulls on Monroe as they do Deseret, and the genetics are obviously different.

Monroe kills a lot better bulls than they do on Deseret, and i would say that is it's #1 difference right off the bat.
Don't quote me on this, but i'm not scared to say that Monroe has an "average" score of somewhere around 360" for the amount of bull tags given.

I don't think the Monroe's elk genetics is much different than the Deseret. I believe the difference is how the two herds are managed. N.cache is a trophy bull unit, but once in a while you hear of a 400 class bull getting shot because it survived long enough to get that big. Deseret gives out more tags so many bulls not have a chance to reach their full potential.

Every elk herd has both good and bad genetics. Some genes are expressed more than others.

Your exactly right Coyote, Deserets bulls average harvest age is only about 5 1/2 years old.
Once in a while they dig out a big old bull up there, but "old" is more in the likelyhood to be 7-8 tops.

 

I'm not aware of Monroe's ratio's but even if that is correct, a lot comes into play with genetics and available tags.
They don't kill nearly as many bulls on Monroe as they do Deseret, and the genetics are obviously different.

Monroe kills a lot better bulls than they do on Deseret, and i would say that is it's #1 difference right off the bat.
Don't quote me on this, but i'm not scared to say that Monroe has an "average" score of somewhere around 360" for the amount of bull tags given.

I don't think the Monroe's elk genetics is much different than the Deseret. I believe the difference is how the two herds are managed. N.cache is a trophy bull unit, but once in a while you hear of a 400 class bull getting shot because it survived long enough to get that big. Deseret gives out more tags so many bulls not have a chance to reach their full potential.

Every elk herd has both good and bad genetics. Some genes are expressed more than others.

Your exactly right Coyote, Deserets bulls average harvest age is only about 5 1/2 years old.
Once in a while they dig out a big old bull up there, but "old" is more in the likelyhood to be 7-8 tops.

So in a nut shell you are indicating that we manage Monroe for a few people instead of managing Monroe for the majority of people, who would more than likely be very happy with a 330 Bull and probably could not tell the difference between a 330 and a 380 anyway (and in all reality I probably fit in the last group).

Edit:

But instead we are thrown a spike to make us happy.......

 

In a "nutshell"....i'd say you are very correct. :wink:

 

Coyoteslayer wrote:
"Don't quote me on this, but i'm not scared to say that Monroe has an "average" score of somewhere around 360" for the amount of bull tags given."

No way CS!! I'm calling BS on that, even if you throw in the Spider bull this year. Quotes like yours fit the type of person I'm describing in my Elk scoring rant.
What you are saying is that for every 300-330 bull killed on the Monroe there is a 390-420 killed? NO WAY

 

[/quote]

So in a nut shell you are indicating that we manage Monroe for a few people instead of managing Monroe for the majority of people, who would more than likely be very happy with a 330 Bull and probably could not tell the difference between a 330 and a 380 anyway (and in all reality I probably fit in the last group).

Edit:

But instead we are thrown a spike to make us happy.......[/quote]

A majority of big game hunters are deer hunter. Managing Monroe for elk (100 tags) while neglecting deer is even worse in my mind.